Terresa Hardaway stopped by to talk to Carbon Sound’s host Sanni about building community through Black Garnet Books, the importance of Black and brown storytelling, and more.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Sanni Brown

Carbon Sound family, we are in with another interview. I'm so excited to meet people from the community. It's the little girl in me. It's just so cool. But in studio, we have an abolitionist — it's so crazy how you look, because I feel like your reputation, I would be terrified to meet you because you look like you about that business. Abolitionist, design researcher, author, anti-racist facilitator, creative director, organizer, educator, and more. She's dedicated to the liberation, and I like liberation, of Black and brown people through art and design, from Black Garnet Books, Terresa Hardaway, welcome, welcome, welcome, yay!

Terresa Hardaway

Thank you so much for having me.

Sanni Brown

You look like you about that business on paper, baby.

Terresa Hardaway

I am, I am about that business. I am about that in person, if I need to be.

Sanni Brown

I gathered that, but you so pretty, so it's off-putting. So for people who may not be familiar, what is Black Garnet Books, and how would you describe it?

Terresa Hardaway

Black Garnet Books is a bookstore. We are a bookstore that I would describe as a place of imagination, creativity, abolition, a place where Black and brown people are centered, queer folks are centered, and it becomes this third space that people can really see themselves on the shelves.

Sanni Brown

Was that intentional? That it be a third space?

Terresa Hardaway

I don't know if it was intentional, necessarily, you know, it was founded by a completely different person. And so when I acquired it, I have always created like these organizing spaces that do become third spaces, where people are coming there to build community, build friendships, build relationships. And so for me, naturally, Black Garnet Books becomes a third space.

Sanni Brown

I like that. No, because I hear about adults needing a third space, shout out to y'all for that.

Terresa Hardaway

Thank you.

Sanni Brown

What inspired the creation of Black Garnet Books, and why was it important to build a space like this one?

Terresa Hardaway

So this space was started by a dear friend and fellow community organizer, Dionne Sims in 2020. She saw a need, she saw that the community needed to fight back and be able to expand and uplift the narratives of Black and brown people, especially during that time. And so she saw that need, and that's why it was created. And then when I acquired it in 2024, I continued on with that same mission, we have, I think, the same vision for what we'd see that bookstore being in community. It's to disrupt anti-blackness, it's to disrupt the racism that is prevalent in our publishing and book industries. It is for us to be able to bring folks together and hear new authors, hear folks who are speaking about our stories and telling the counter-story, frankly.

Sanni Brown

I like that. That sounds like storytelling, and when I was in school, I learned how important storytelling is to the human experience. So right now, we in a moment where people feeling overwhelmed and restless and angry. What role do you feel like storytelling and literature play in helping people to stay grounded during this time?

Terresa Hardaway

Oh, wow. Well, as an educator as well, I think it is super important for us to be able to talk about our stories, or talk about the narratives I think that especially underrepresented. When I was thinking about this question, I was thinking about this in the framing of like past, present, future. And so storytelling plays a role in those three areas. We have to understand the past, right? We have to understand the counter-histories that aren't being told so that we can understand what's happening today. So in order for us to get from that past piece, we have to then see authors who are talking about the real systemic oppression that is happening in this moment, and be able to help us define that and put words to it. Because when we begin to understand it, we can start to call it out, and we can start to actively move forward in changing that present-day reality. And then we move into future, I just think about the imaginations of Black and brown people and how we are constantly holding on to hope. We have to, in order for us to even be in this — to live a life —

Sanni Brown

Exist.

Terresa Hardaway

Exist, you know, we have to hold on to that hope and that future piece. And so when I think about the future with regard to storytelling, I think about all the authors who are giving us abolitionist futures, who are giving us what collective liberation could look like, who are giving us ways to build relationship and overcome all of these things. And so I think about storytelling in that way, that past, that present, that future being really highlighted so that we can understand where we came from, understand where we're living in now, and understand the future that we all should be trying to fight for.

Sanni Brown

I love that. That's a great segue into my next question. So how are you painting the future with the work that you're doing? What are the initiatives that you're taking? Any events? Anything we need to keep an eye peeled out, in case we want to get involved, we want to support.

Terresa Hardaway

We are constantly doing a ton of events at Black Garnet Books, we have a book club that we have every single month that is a different topic.

Sanni Brown

How do you join the book club? I've been talking about book club since I was a little girl. I've always wanted to join.

Terresa Hardaway

Well, at Black Garnet Books, it's the most accessible thing. Just show up. The book is going to be posted on our website. We also make a post about it on our social media. But you get the book for 15% off, and you just show up to the book club. You can show up having read a chapter, having read the whole book, but just show up and you build community and have conversation about that. So we have a fantasy genre book club. We have an abolitionist genre book club, and we have a graphic novel book club. So we have these kind of three separate areas that folks can join one of, they can join all three of them, but you would get that book for 15% off and build community. All the events that I'm talking about are going to be at the bookstore.

Sanni Brown

How can we support you? People who are listening, how can we support? How can we get the word out about you? Where can we follow you?

Terresa Hardaway

Yeah, you can follow us on all platforms, at Black Garnet Books, and you can support us by attending events, subscribing to our newsletter, shopping in-store or online, attending things that we're doing in community, because we're oftentimes, for instance, we'll be at Pride this year, and so, stopping by our table and supporting us there. There are many ways I think that folks can engage with us if you just pay attention to what we're posting on social and show up to the things that we're doing around community.

Sanni Brown

Terresa, thank you so much for coming in today. You're awesome, and I love your look!

Terresa Hardaway

Thank you!

Mamé Bioh stopped by to talk to Carbon Sound’s host Sanni about all things Believe In What’s Possible: from community-forward events to youth-centered political activations and fellowships.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Sanni Brown

Carbon Sound family, we have another Carbon Sound Community Voices interview. I'm so excited about these, because I get to actually see the faces that create the Minnesota creative scene, the Minnesota music scene, and everything beyond. Mamé Bioh is a community organizer, creative, and co-founder of Believe In What's Possible. And we gonna get down to why we is believing in what is possible. So Mamé Bioh welcome, welcome, welcome. Ok, so just straight to it. What is Believe In What's Possible? How did it start?

Mamé Bioh

Believe In What's Possible is a youth-led and youth centered nonprofit based in the Twin Cities and outside of the Twin Cities a little bit. We are a collective of amazing young leaders, specifically in the realm of politics, who've been either doing campaign work for the past few years, who've either been doing city work for the past few years, government work to some capacities, or who have been doing really great community work within the community for the past, like three to four years. I'll give a little bit of like my entry into the team. It's a team of, including me, four beautiful women. It was around end of '22, early '23, we had just had a really big state election. I was doing some really, really awesome community work with other organizations, and I had met my other co-founder, Chelsea, and we were in this position where a lot of the spaces that politics runs, that nonprofit spaces run, that just really heavy institutional community spaces operate, have very little young people in them. Very little BIPOC communities, very little marginalized communities, and so we were at a point where the work I was doing wasn't speaking to anybody in my generation. I had just did a voting turnout event where I had brought a bunch of my college friends with me, and afterwards, they're like, "Oh, that was fun. But I wouldn't do that again. I wouldn't really want to engage in that type of work." And also, I think specifically within past, like, five to six years, it's been a lot of just disillusionment around the ways people engage in politics, and around the trust that we have with the government, locally and nationally. But specifically nationally, I think it has really shifted and jaded a lot of the communities that really need —

Sanni Brown

Politics.

Mamé Bioh

You know what I mean? And so we all came together at a mentor's house, and we were just kind of ranting, like just talking the talk. I think we got to a point where we're like, "We don't want to be put in a position where it's so difficult for young people to come into these spaces." Whether it's leading a campaign, whether it's speaking at a hearing, whether it's showcasing artwork, whether it's even building your own campaign. And specifically, one of the things to know about the way politics works, is specifically when it comes to voting, voting operates off a reliability resource. So a lot of the databases that come into voting rely heavily on your consistency. And so, you become a reliable constituent based off of your consistency engaging with the system. Now, to the understanding, who definitely is not going to be the most reliable?

Sanni Brown

Young people.

Mamé Bioh

Young people, single mothers, Black people —

Sanni Brown

Disabled people.

Mamé Bioh

Do you see what I mean? Who's going to be the most reliable? Older white people. And it became this thing where the minute you didn't engage in the system, the minute you didn't engage in voting, it was another reason to just say, "Okay, we don't need to listen to you. We don't need to go into your neighborhood and actually speak to you." It's systemically utilized in that way. It's a cycle. They make it difficult, you back out, they use that exact reason to make it more difficult.

Sanni Brown

Okay, so gaslighting, political gaslighting.

Mamé Bioh

Oh, absolutely.

Sanni Brown

Gotcha. So, y'all got together, y'all having this conversation. You like, "Ok, we need to do something." And so you are now in this conversation, you're realizing certain trends that are used in politics and what's holding these communities back. So then who decides, "Look, we got to put boots on the ground. We got to get this moving."?

Mamé Bioh

So what happened was we wanted to do something extremely different. We really wanted to create a bridge for young people to have a level of connection building, community building, but do it in a way that brought them to the polls. We launched our kind of first year programming. Did a couple events, we did a sip and paint, we did a day party, which was really beautiful.

Sanni Brown

And what age group do you work with the most?

Mamé Bioh

So currently, the age group that we work with is 14 to 29.

Sanni Brown

Because you said sip and paint. I want to be clear.

Mamé Bioh

It's like matcha. You know what I mean?

Sanni Brown

Ok, cocoa. Talking about cocoa.

Mamé Bioh

So it's 14 to 29, specifically because until you turn 30, you are not deemed reliable yet.

Sanni Brown

Wow, I didn't know that.

Mamé Bioh

It's much more complicated than that, but in that retrospect. Even when my co-founders has been voting since they were able to, has been engaging, has been going to polls with their parents, but is not seen as a reliable constituent. Has been working campaigns, but isn't fully looked at from that —

Sanni Brown

It's also interesting that that data is being collected, and analyzed in that way I should say.

Mamé Bioh

It's specifically analyzed because, again, candidates want to — I don't say take the easy way, but they want to make sure that they're getting a bang for their buck. And so like, majority of the work that they're doing when it comes to young people, is going to college campuses, maybe a couple weeks, maybe not even the last week before voting, and saying, "Hey, here's my pamphlet. You should come." Not doing anything. And so we wanted to create more of a nonpartisan, very much community-centered way of operating where we hosted events. So since then, we were able to kind of launch Believe In What's Possible through a variety of programming, one called Scheme Space that created kind of like a thought space, and a thought space and a building space for young people to come share their thoughts, share resources, share understanding and grow as a collective. Then we had Turn Up to Turn Out, which was our community-led, community-forward, kind of like event program where we hosted drag shows, we hosted day parties, and we're doing some really cool stuff this year. I can't say yet, but just some really fun event spaces for people to just feel like a political space is actually for them. And then the other thing that we currently just launched, it's going to be coming in our second year, is the People's Studio.

Sanni Brown

What's the People's Studio?

Mamé Bioh

The People's Studio is one of my favorite things. It is a fellowship program for young creatives and aspiring community organizers —

Sanni Brown

To get involved in the political process?

Mamé Bioh

So what we want to do is we want to bring in the two worlds of creative curation and political action and civic engagement and community organizing and bring them together. So we had a great group of around like eight to nine young people who joined our fellowship and became fellows. And we taught them the fundamentals of what it means to be a community organizer, from understanding mobilizing, from understanding influence to understanding power, really, and understanding what does that what does that power look like? How do you understand it? How do you understand it from the power that you haven't used yet? How do you understand it from the power that someone actually has? And how do you understand the power from how you influence in the spaces that you have, the social settings that you have. Cool, you're a musician and you have a fan base, you can easily create art that pushes that fan base, you know what I mean? And so really creating young leaders in the city who can truly start utilizing their voices a lot more strongly.

Sanni Brown

And the tools that they naturally have.

Mamé Bioh

Exactly, exactly. So it was a beautiful program, and I'm really excited to launch it this year.

Sanni Brown

If other young people want to be a part of this, this sounds really exciting — to me, because I'm nosy. I got a nosiness, and I know that there are young people who are listening, who are also nosy, and they have their ear to the ground, but they might feel like, "I don't know, I didn't grow up around that dynamic." How could they get in touch with you? How can they follow you?

Mamé Bioh

Follow the Believe In What's Possible page, @believinwhatspossible.

Sanni Brown

When you say page, what social media?

Mamé Bioh

Instagram, go to our Instagram. We have our website there as well. You can join our email list. You'll always get the emails from us. We're always posting on Instagram, always reposting stuff. You can even DM the Instagram page and we'll respond back. And then also, I'm a community organizer, so if you want to have coffee, want to sit down, talk more, get to understand how to do that, hit me up. Heyitsmame on Instagram.

Sanni Brown

It's such a big undertaking that you're doing with this, so I'm glad that we can use our platform to support you, and I'm hoping you can come back out here and tell us more about the events that you're doing.

Mamé Bioh

Of course.

Sanni Brown

Mamé Bioh in studio, Carbon Sound. Thank you so much.

Mamé Bioh

Thank you.

Duol Chut of Diesel J's and Smokin on the Runway stopped by to talk to Carbon Sound’s host Sanni about starting his own business, his upcoming events, and more.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Sanni Brown

In studio, I've been talking about it all week, organizer of Diesel J's, a rolling paper company that hosts community events based around business education, fashion shows, and artist showcases — and honestly, I just met you last year, and you was hustling, Carbon Sound family, Duol Chut.

Duol Chut

Thank you for the introduction, Sanni, and it's a pleasure.

Sanni Brown

So first and foremost, what is Diesel J and how did that come to be?

Duol Chut

So there was a time where my nickname was Diesel. I have, like especially in college, I was just known to have good bud. I'm a connoisseur. I'm just very connoisseur minded.

Sanni Brown

When he say bud, he mean weed?

Duol Chut

Yeah, cannabis. I don't know, what terminology should we be using?

Sanni Brown

I mean, it's legal.

Duol Chut

Yeah, exactly, right? That's what we trying to preach. But that's where the name Diesel J's came from. So we're an organic, all-natural rolling paper brand, and we host community events, mainly cannabis inspired, but we also do a few other ones too.

Sanni Brown

How do you put on community events? Because I feel like marijuana is legalized now, but I just grew up most of my life it was illegal. I don't know, I feel like I'm still in the dark ages of it being illegal, and I'm even still scared to say it on air.

Duol Chut

Honestly, it was like right after COVID, I just stopped drinking. So I just went California sober. So it's been about, really, five years.

Sanni Brown

Pause. What is California sober?

Duol Chut

California sober just means that I don't drink alcohol, or if it's just a special occasion, I'll have a glass of champagne. But for the most part, I just consume cannabis.

Sanni Brown

What was the thing that made you decide to do that?

Duol Chut

Honestly, I had a drinking problem. It was college, but just for a small town and things like that, I just saw what it really did to me and did to like, friends and family. And it was just one of those situations I saw how I was doing without it, and I'm like, "I can't go back." And so that's why I've been California sober for so long. And I just felt like cannabis has helped me be more creative, be more disciplined, and really just kind of figure out what I want to do, and I'm just going at it.

Sanni Brown

You just said that was what you was doing as a part of college life. And then you pivot into Diesel J's, into this company, what was the moment in COVID that made you be like, you want to go from consuming it, to "I want the community to be able to consume, as well as the culture" and coming together and creating this whole experience around it?

Duol Chut

Honestly, it was for representation. In 2020 when COVID happened, I lost my job. So I was figuring out a lot of different things, I started doing reselling of electronics, and I wanted to get into business for sure, 100%. And by 2022, I wasn't drinking, I stopped smoking backwoods, I got the tobacco out of my system, and I just went through all the rolling papers that's out there, all the major brands, and I just didn't really like the experience with them. And I'm like, "Okay, let me just start my own." But what really made me go full out on it was, I have a best friend, he passed away in 2020, and it was kind of due to alcohol. I stopped drinking before that, but after that, I'm like, "Okay, I'm just gonna launch it." I can't really think on it. I'm a person who likes to plan so I had everything written out. It's like, "Okay, I just have to do it, and I'm gonna figure it out. I'm just gonna really apply what I know in business and really figure this out." Because that's the only thing I could do.

Sanni Brown

What does ownership and Black entrepreneurship mean to you, and how did that tie into you creating this business?

Duol Chut

Ownership is huge to me. Have you heard of Earn Your Leisure?

Sanni Brown

I have heard of that, yeah.

Duol Chut

So 2020, 2021 is when they launched, I watched one of their first three episodes on YouTube, and so I literally have been following their story since then. From what they were doing and who they were bringing on, and watching them literally start off a podcast just like this, using their phones just like this to kind of get where they're at now, I took that as inspiration and really watched them and took that into consideration with what I'm doing.

Sanni Brown

Okay, so when does the fashion show come in? How did you tie this in to that? Because I feel like a fashion show is so formal and everybody's got to be on they point, and this seems more like laid back and relaxed. How do you merge them two vibes?

Duol Chut

I guess I'm kind of both. I'm from the military background, I've been doing sports since like sixth grade, so I'm very disciplined, detailed-oriented. I also like to smoke weed and kick back. Before I started even doing our own fashion show, I was a photographer for Black Fashion Week, so I was doing fashion shows, helping them put it together. We'd do seven shows a season, so I did that for a full year. One thing I always recommend to people, if you're really trying to get into a space, and if you're really trying to grow your skills, I just gave my photography for free. Like, this is a great way for me to step in, I was able to do that, they loved the work, I was able to meet a lot of people from there, really able to connect with a lot of different models, different artists. And they called me back the next season. Like, "Hey, we want you to do photography again, and this time we'll pay you. We really loved what you did last time." And plus, I was setting up, still kind of getting my name out there, and so I appreciate Black Fashion Week and Natalie Morrow for that. It was her, Shamika and Ambers Foundation. So that's kind of how I got started into fashion, like, actually working there. But my cousin, she's actually a designer, she was involved in New York Fashion Week. She was the very first fashion show I went to back in like, 2017. I just went out there with my cousins, one of my homies from high school, he was a model. So I'm like, "Okay, cool, this is pretty dope." I just came back from the military, so I was just chilling. Like, I'm about to go to college, it wasn't really anything I was in tune with, but that was my first experience with that. I came back to it once I started my business, because I'm like, "Let me do photography, because it'll save me money, I'll learn the skill, and I could use that as well." And that's kind of where it took me from there, and kind of seeing the lack of it, because I was going to fashion shows and I was going to cannabis events, a lot of them were still underground feel, even though it's kind of legal. And so what came to be was Smokin on the Runway, which was the fact that I have a cannabis brand, mainly rolling papers, but we have some apparel. People didn't really look at cannabis apparel, except for drug rugs, or Cookies, that was like the only major brand people know.

Sanni Brown

I'm telling you, I'm trying to figure out, where does the fashion come in? I have never thought of the cannabis community being known for fashion.

Duol Chut

But there is designers, because guess what? All these same designers, artists, and models love cannabis. They never actually got to experience the actual events because —

Sanni Brown

It was illegal, too.

Duol Chut

They just, "I'm trying to just smoke weed. I'm not trying to get locked up." And so that's still that same stigma. So we're just trying to change that by bringing those two things together, and really showcasing these designers and these people who are cannabis advocates, and some of these designers, they don't have to be a cannabis brand. They're just incorporating cannabis themes into their designs, if that's symbolism, if that's materials like hemp and sustainability. So we do upcycle, so sustainability is a huge part of that. And then we also add a lot of color.

Sanni Brown

So you got a fashion show coming up on May 3. Is the hemp folks gonna be in the building?

Duol Chut

You know it's going to be, you're gonna see some great designs. And additionally, from the fashion show, we're gonna have a limited-edition collaboration with KelsTheGawd. It's going to be his album release as well. Keep that on the hush. I'm just kidding, tell everybody! We trying to have you guys come out. So it's gonna be a limited-edition release of the cones, they're going to be available there. We're gonna have some preorders, so I'm excited for that. This has been one of our goals, and there was just so much synergy coming up for it, and it just felt great.

Sanni Brown

I know you got your show on May 3, but do you have anything else that you could give us like a Carbon Sound exclusive about?

Duol Chut

So we have the NECANN afterparty May 14. And so NECANN, they are the Northeastern Cannabis Association. They do conferences like CHAMPS Trade Show, they do that all across the country, and they came to emerging markets. What I love about NECANN is they're very socially focused, so they work with the community to put this together. They have a percentage of their booth space set aside for social equity applicants. And then additionally, they try to make sure to highlight a lot of the different artists that are coming through. They have like an art basil. So we're doing the official afterparty for them. And it's just another way for us to really kind of grow, connect with different professionals across the country, and also kind of just introduce them to what Minnesota is about. So we're gonna do what we do already, and kind of do that for the conference afterparty, and show them what to expect of our Minnesota cannabis. And the teaser right here is we're trying to put together a free community event at the end of May and early June, and have it become a running series. Because one thing that we've talked about is during all this time and isolation with the cold, with Metro Surge and everything going on, there's a lot of trauma. Psychologically speaking, you need at least four to six positive experiences to kind of get over that negative experience in all relationships. And when I say relationships, I mean community as well. We're trying to put together these free community events, and these events in general, it's just kind of bringing back joy, like you need that so much, especially during this time. And the best way people feel that is through the arts. So we're definitely trying to bring that together.

Sanni Brown

How can we follow you? How can we keep up with you and support what you're doing, so that you can further continue to support the community with your projects.

Duol Chut

You can find us on IG at smokinontherunway, and you can find us on Instagram at chief.diesel for our rolling papers. You can also find us at www.dieseljpapers.com, and at www.sotrmn.org, which is abbreviations for smokinontherunwaymn.org.

Sanni Brown

Thank you so much Duol, thank you for coming out. What makes your rolling papers different than other people's rolling papers?

Duol Chut

I'm glad you asked. So what makes our papers different from most of the papers that you see, is ours is not made out of hemp, it's not made out of rice paper, which is predominantly what's used. We use wood pulp. So ours are called brown paper, so they have a browner tint to them, so it's still all organic, all natural, wood pulp is. But it has like, thicker fibers, so it just burns slower, less likely to canoe. And I enjoy that texture and that consistency better, because if it's dry, or if it's kind of a little bit more moist, it still burns well, and it doesn't just flame out or burn unevenly.

Sanni Brown

Well, thank you. I really appreciate you coming into Carbon Sound fasho.

Duol Chut

I appreciate it, Sanni.

Righteous Emcee stopped by to talk Carbon Sound’s host Sanni about his new album, A Legendary Run.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Sanni Brown

It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. An independent hip-hop artist, curator, community builder rooted in the Twin Cities, and just recently came out with one of the dopest hip-hop albums I've heard in 2026 so far. The name of the album is called A Legendary Run, Carbon Sound family, please welcome Righteous Emcee. Thank you so much for coming in, man.

Righteous Emcee

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Sanni Brown

So just straight out the gate, this album, A Legendary Run. Where did that come from? It dropped February 23, 2026, we ain't too far removed.

Righteous Emcee

So initially, I started recording another album. I started recording that, maybe, like, two years ago. And the producer of that album, he had a baby. So he was like, "Yo, I ain't gonna be able to really move around and do a lot of things." So, you know, I kind of took that opportunity just to create something new. And I started making songs, and literally, it just start forming itself, and it turned into A Legendary Run. And as independent artists, a lot of times, we don't look at our journeys as careers, right? We tend to think it's just something that we do, and we love it or whatever, but no, this is a career. And you put a lot of time and effort and energy and money into this craft. It's a career. So I had to take a step back and kind of look at all of the things that I've done, and really just give myself a round of applause. We don't tend to do that so often. A lot of times, we just so stuck in like, survival mode, and I just gotta get it, I gotta get it. But sometimes it's cool to celebrate the wins, and look back at all of the things that you've gone through and say, "Wow, look where I'm at." I think about all of the times when I was a kid, and I would stand on the front porch of my mama's house in Chicago and pretend like I was on a stage and be rapping and doing all the things. And to look at my life now, I've touched all the stages that you can probably touch in this city. So yeah, that's a beautiful thing. I look at A Legendary Run as me looking at it from the standpoint of like, "Wow, I've done a lot," but also, "I got more to do."

Sanni Brown

What would you say are the top three things, real things, that make up Righteous Emcee that you poured into this album?

Righteous Emcee

I would say vulnerability is probably the number one thing that I put into it, just being okay with saying certain things, right? Being ok with talking about what you've been through, being ok with telling your best friends that you love them. Just being ok with certain things because we live in a society where, especially for Black men, we're taught, "Hey, all that crying, check that at the door." But it's like, nah, it's okay to deal with things and go through emotions and feel certain things. So vulnerability was definitely one of them, I would say just knowing who you are. And I know for me personally, I won't speak for anybody else, but for me, I've always kind of been ok with playing the background, because I look at it as everybody has a role to play, right? Everybody has a position. And I've always just said, "Hey, y'all go to the front. I'm cool with playing it back. I'll work on this, and y'all be the stars." But it's like, I'm a star; I can shine bright too. So a lot of it is really about just me saying, "You know what, I know who I am."

Sanni Brown

I'm really glad you said that, because we have a lot of young people listening, and I need them to hear that. They have that star quality as well. Okay, what's the third thing you put in?

Righteous Emcee

I would say just love. Love for the craft, love for the people in my life, love for my kids. It's kind of like how they talk about when your grandma or somebody would make a dish. They would say they put the love in it, measured everything and everything was delicious. And that's how I looked at this album, like, "I'm not gonna rush it." It took a while, it took a year and a half to complete, but it's like, "I'm gonna take my time, I'm gonna put my all into it, and I'm gonna really give everybody just all of me."

Sanni Brown

You can tell. There was a lot of rawness on the album. What does legendary mean to you?

Righteous Emcee

I think that's for whoever is dealing with that, that's for them to decide. I don't think legendary comes with boxes to check off. I think it's however you look at it. Maybe you've overcome an addiction, "I'm legendary," right? Because I did something that so many people couldn't do or still struggling with, right? It could be anything, really. It could be anything that makes you feel like you're legendary. And I know for me personally, what makes me feel like I'm legendary is that when I look back in my life and look back at all of the things that I've been through and where I've come, I never knew that I would be married with children. I never thought that I would be on these stages, like I couldn't see past a year for a long time. But it's like now I'm here, I'm sitting with y'all, and I'm talking about this album, that's legendary to me. So it's whatever you want it to be.

Sanni Brown

How else are you gonna show us Righteous Emcee? What other events you got going on to show us the culture?

Righteous Emcee

April 17, I'll be performing at Acadia. It's for a show for a brother of mine who's out of New Orleans, he's coming here. So that's like the first performance that I'm having post the album. I'm kind of still in that creative mode right now, so I recently just dropped a three-piece special. And basically what that is, is for anybody who actually went to EVEN to purchase the album, I gave them access to three songs, three original songs that I created just for them to have. So I sent that to them, and everybody really enjoyed it. They really loved it. Somebody even said, "Hey, man, I'm loving this with the album, this is crazy." So I'm kind of in this space where I like giving out these small EPs that really pack a punch, so to speak. So I'm putting out another one very soon, but I'm gonna make that available to everybody, and that's gonna be coming soon. So yeah, I'm just really in creative mode right now. Got another album coming out, my brother Bushido.Chop. who's one of the dopest emcees, producers in the city, he's producing my next album that's gonna be coming out sometime in May, and that's gonna be called Subs No Dubs. Hope everybody appreciate that when it come out, and we gonna do it again.

Sanni Brown

We missed this question, but please tell us more about your EVEN account.

Righteous Emcee

EVEN is basically a platform where you can sell your music direct to consumer. And I've been kind of on that for a while and just trying to navigate, like, what's the best way to do that? Because sometimes you put something out and you put a price tag on it, some people feel a way about that, because things are so readily available now. I tell people all the time, streaming to me ain't nothing but a utility at this point. You pay your bill, you get it for the month, and you just pay it again. So you lose a sense of value when it comes to the music, right? It's just like it's always there. But when you actually have to go somewhere, pay for it, do the whole process, download it, all these type of things, you kind of appreciate it just a little bit more through that process. So I wanted people to really appreciate the music and sit with the music. You pay $10 for it, so, "Hey, I'm gonna actually sit with this and listen to it." And then also, you put a lot into the music. Studio time and mixing and mastering and all of these type of things, that ain't free, that costs money. So you want to see some type of return. But for me, it's really not about making the money off of the album. It's just about creating the space where the album can live and breathe. And it's just not something that you can just, "Oh, here it go right here, and I can skip through the songs," and "Oh, it got a little dot by the song, I guess that means that's the best song, let me listen to it." So it eliminates that, and you can just love and sit with the album.

Sanni Brown

Is there a handle we're supposed to follow you on?

Righteous Emcee

Yeah, you can go to Even.biz, and then type in Righteous Emcee, and you'll find me.

Sanni Brown

How can we just keep up with you? What if we're new to town and we just happen to pull into the Twin Cities and we heard this interview, how do we keep up with Righteous Emcee?

Righteous Emcee

Just follow me on Instagram. That's where I'm at, that's the hub for everything. Go to Instagram, righteousemcee on Instagram. Anything new is happening with me, that's where you will probably see it.

Sanni Brown

I gotta follow you. A Legendary Run by Righteous Emcee. If you like lyricism, you like people talking that spit, okay, this is the album for you. In my opinion, no skips. Thank you for doing what you're doing. Thank you for being who you are, and thank you for coming in to Carbon Sound studios.

Righteous Emcee

Thank you for having me.

Sanni Brown

I appreciate you so much. I cannot wait to get that song in here. I already made somebody cry. What is it called?

Righteous Emcee

“'95 Regal.”

Sanni Brown

“'95 Regal,” I knew it was a Buick! That Regal baby, that Regal done got me through some things. Thank you Righteous Emcee, thank you so much.

Righteous Emcee

Appreciate it.

Students from High School for Recording Arts (HSRA) sat down with Carbon Sound’s host Sanni and talked about the impact HSRA has had on their personal, educational, and creative growth.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Sanni Brown 

It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. I love the kids. Y'all know I love the kids, and y'all know I love these interviews. We had this group in before, but it was just like the makers and the co-creators and the leaders of this group, but now we got the young folks coming in, and I appreciate that, because I love the kids. I love to listen to what the next generation is going through. In studio, we have High School for Recording Arts, Jahai and I'yani, and they will be coming in today, just to give us a little bit of understanding about the projects that they're working on. But let me just go ahead and run down the receipts. For over two decades, High School for Recording Arts has been a beacon of creativity and empowerment for young artists, providing a platform for students to explore their passion for music and expression. And the mission of High School for Recording Arts is to provide youth the opportunity to achieve a high school diploma through exploration and operation of the music business and other creative endeavors. Carbon Sound family, please welcome from High School for Recording Arts, Jahai and I'yani.

Jahai 

Hello hello!

I'yani 

Hi!

Sanni Brown 

First of all, I love kids. I worked with kids for 25 years before I pivoted into media. I'm just happy to have y'all in and have y'all young energy in today. So thank you for taking time out, because I know y'all could be ripping and running with projects y'all got going.

I'yani 

Thank you for having us.

Jahai 

Yeah, thank you so much.

Sanni Brown 

So tell me about what y'all do over at High School for Recording Arts. Are you both seniors?

Jahai 

I'm a senior.

I'yani 

I'm a senior as well.

Sanni Brown 

That's so exciting. Your senior year, I remember my senior year. Are y'all excited?

Jahai 

I'm excited, but a little scared. I feel old.

Sanni Brown 

What??

I'yani 

That's how I feel like. This is my last February as a teenager, I'll be 20 in June. So, like, I'm literally counting down the months. I will never be a teenager in the month of February ever again.

Sanni Brown  

I hear you. I like that you guys are paying attention, though. So what do you what are you scared of?

Jahai 

Just the unknown. I mean, we stay in the unknown all the time.

Sanni Brown 

Yeah, if you're a creative.

Jahai 

Yeah, that's for sure. It's a new step, not being in school.

Sanni Brown

And it's the end of another step.

Jahai 

Yep, new beginnings and new endings. But it's pretty awesome, but a little scary.

Sanni Brown 

How would you describe your whole high school career? Did you guys go to High School for Recording Arts your whole high school? Is that your whole high school experience?

Jahai 

Yeah, I did.

I'yani 

I did not. My high school experience goes like this. I have never really been a school person, like I love learning, but it's just something about sitting in a classroom under white light for hours and hours and hours at a time, and then you want me to go home and then keep doing the work. I've just never been that kind of learner. So that eventually led me to dropping out my junior year. I would go to the library during the school day and I would read all day. I would get tons of books, and I would just read at the library.

Sanni Brown 

This was after you dropped out?

I'yani 

Yes, this is like, what would have been my junior year. Because my mom — she didn't know that I dropped out. Because I love learning. So that's what I would do. I would just read all day. And then I started making music on my phone, on this app called BandLab, and I posted one of my songs that I made on Snapchat, and a student that used to go to the school, he slid up and was like, "Hey, I like your song." We became friends, and then he was telling me about it [HSRA], and what caught me at first was that school started at 9, because I'm used to, like, 7:40. So I'm like, "Ok, I'm kinda interested." And now I am still here. I was supposed to graduate from HSRA class of 2024, but I chose to stay because of how amazing the school is. Like they really put life into a person — they're not paying me to say this. On everything I love, if it was not for this school, I probably would not have anything going for myself, honestly.

Sanni Brown 

Thank you for sharing your story. That's beautiful how you was like "I ain't feeling this," and it navigated you to where you were supposed to be. That's brave, first of all. That's brave, and you're gonna need that when you graduate. So I hope you grab that. So Jahai, tell us your story.

Jahai 

I went to HSRA for my whole entire school year, but before that, I was homeschooled all my life. We moved around a lot, doing homeschooling because my mom knew that the school system isn't like, it's not all the way there. You know, the bullying, just like the unstructured, the systemic racism that goes through it. And I think at a point, me and my brother, we were like, "Ok, we're doing home schooling. We're getting into high school. I think it's time for us to kinda change what we're doing and go into high school." Not exactly for the learning experience, in like a typical school-related learning, but more of a socially and being around people our age. We were like, "Ok, this is our next step." Me and him had like, a whole meeting together. Like, "Ok, this is gonna be uncomfortable for us. We're kind of stagnant right now, and I think it's best for us to go into high school." And my brother's friend, he actually went to HSRA, but he was like, "Yo, this school is really dope. You should check it out. It's really musical, just check it out for like, one day." And we went up there and it was just like, day one, we were like, "Oh my god."

Sanni Brown 

What grabbed you on that day? When you went, what grabbed you? Like, "Nah, I gotta go here."

Jahai 

When we went, I was wearing a top hat, and a whole, like, suit. And everyone was just like, "Yo, I love what you're wearing. It's unusual, but it's dope." Everyone was so nice. 

Sanni Brown 

It was the energy.

Jahai 

Yeah, it was the energy.

Sanni Brown 

And probably the affirmative vibes. 

Jahai

I was like, "Ok, this is for me." I think HSRA, the way it's structured, kind of reminds me of homeschooling. How it's like, personal. It feels like I'm actually growing instead of doing the work, and that's it. We've had so many different like, life experience. I feel like it teaches you how to be human.

Sanni Brown 

Wow. Can you explain that more? Is it because they care about how the day is structured? What is happening, that it makes you feel like you're human? Is it the curriculum?

I'yani 

A mix of everything.

Jahai 

Yeah, it's a mix of everything. I think, instead of just like, "Ok, this is math for math, you're like, really learning how to apply this in a living situation.

Sanni Brown 

So they relate it to real life situations, versus "You need to know five plus five, and if you don't, you gonna fail."

Jahai 

Right, they make you use your brain. Critical thinking. So I think that's definitely one of the beautiful things about HSRA.

Sanni Brown 

You said that you got on your first plane, you shot a music video, what opportunities have come about since going to the school now?

Jahai 

Yeah, I mean, I've gotten to interview Mayor Carter. I've gotten to do many podcasts and learn how to economically use my creativity in a use. Like, I could start my own business; they've taught me things like that. Which I think is absolutely amazing. I've gotten to go out of state to meet with other schools and do projects and try so many things. It's a lot of dope opportunities.

Sanni Brown  

So based off what I'm hearing from both of you, somebody pitched the school to y'all. How would you all, now, after you've been there, you've experienced it, you're about to graduate, how would you pitch it to young people who may need what you guys are receiving? How would you pitch it?

I'yani 

Man, from the heart, the average school system, in my opinion, is just not built for success in everybody's life. And that does not mean that it's it for you, that it's just wraps. If you're one of those people who is like, "Man, school is really bugging me, I'm just not getting with this," whether it's hard, whether it's the people, the environment, whatever it is, I feel like HSRA offers something different because of how family-like it is. For example, the founder, T.C. Ellis, his sister works there, and everybody calls her "Mama Chi." And that's one of our values. We have four values: family, community, education, and respect. And keeping those values in mind, I really think changes the vibe of the school. It's very little that it's ever violent there. I feel like everybody is just like, "Hey, what's up? How are you doing?" Like I said, you want to be there. It's very welcoming. It's easy to make friends; it's easy to keep friends. And the teachers actually go above and beyond. Like, they'll connect with you one-on-one. They're not just gonna expect you to do the stuff. They will meet you where you're at. They will get very versatile, how they approach things. If one thing's not working for you, they're not just gonna give up on you and say, "Well, it's my way or the highway." I feel like the teachers there are not just there for the paycheck at the end of the day. They really put their hearts in it, and they go above and beyond for all the students, all the same.

Sanni Brown 

Thank you, I'yani. Alright, Jahai.

Jahai 

Couldn't have said it any better. It's a place for the weirdos. It teaches you that you should be weird. HSRA is the place where we accept your weirdness. We want you to thrive off your weirdness.

Sanni Brown 

I like that. It sounds like you guys are free to express yourself as humans. That's what it sounds like. And I know in the larger world, in the cool kids, they say that's weird, but the way I run my thing here is I lean into my own self-expression. So it's really exciting to see you guys have that, because I kind of had to find that, and I'm glad that you guys are receiving that in your youth, because I'm expecting to see some wild creativity in your future. You have a couple of mental health projects. It's called Tune in Speak Out. We're gonna take a break right now, but I wanna talk about that. Ok, so in studio, y'all, we got High School for Recording Arts, Jahai and I'yani. But when we come back, we're going to get into this Tune in Speak Out mental health project that you guys got going on for the youth. So we'll be back on The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life.

Sanni Brown 

We are back with High School for Recording Arts seniors, Jahai and I'yani, and they are in today. We've gotten kind of a taste test of their high school career. They're in their senior year. They've discussed with us how, I would say, affirming High School for Recording Arts is. It's a space for the weirdos and for creatives, and a place where you can express yourself as a young person, and just giving us a contrast about a regular school setting and the setting of that High School for Recording Arts provides them. So first of all, thank you again for y'all being in. Let's get into this mental health here, because everything you guys are describing, it sounds so mentally soothing for a educational space. Not only does it sound like they're providing that, but you guys are actually creating more projects to put out here into the ether. So you have a project called Tune in Speak Out. What's that about?

Jahai 

I mean, I am the album cover. It was a long project, I'd say. It took a lot out of us.

Sanni Brown 

When did it start?

Jahai 

It might have been 2023.

I'yani 

I think that's maybe when it started. Because I remember sitting down with our advisor at the time, and she was like, "We need a project to get going for our advisory. What do you guys wanna do?” And a group of us just decided, of course, we want to make music. That's what that advisor is leaning towards. And we're like, "What about?" And we're like, "Let's just talk about how we feel. Let's just be vulnerable." So that's what we did. Some people on there curated the beats, there's vocals, there's rapping, there's spoken word, I'm pretty sure. But it is very honest, very vulnerable.

Sanni Brown 

So what is it? Is it a podcast? Is it an album?

Jahai and I'yani 

Both.

Sanni Brown 

Wait, what?

Jahai 

Yeah, I think between different songs, there's a podcast segment where I'm the host.

Sanni Brown 

So wait, is it a show? Or is it a —

I'yani 

It's an album. So like, if you go on Spotify and you play like, track one, it's gonna start off with, like, somebody starts speaking, and then the song starts playing, and then the next song will come on, somebody's talking, and then the song will come on. But you kinda correlate each different podcast segment together to kind of like, build that story, and then the music is kind of like, what gets you thinking and just feeling and then understanding, like, "Oh, this is how that correlates," if that makes sense.

Sanni Brown 

And it's you and your other classmates making this music?

Jahai and I'yani 

Yes.

Sanni Brown 

Oh, wow, and doing the podcast. What is the subject matter? How are you addressing your feelings on these podcasts and this project?

I'yani 

Well, me personally, I talked about feeling just heavy. Like my head's in the clouds — that's actually one of my lyrics. Feeling like my head is in the clouds, like I just can't lock in, and being vulnerable and just admitting that I feel that way, because I feel like that's a hard step for some people, and to just say like it's okay to feel how you feel, it's okay to not be okay. You don't always have to be good all the time. But also raising awareness on not dwelling in that feeling for too long, and patting your own self on the back and getting up and just trying again the next day.

Sanni Brown  

And so you're on the cover of this project.

Jahai 

Yes.

Sanni Brown 

Why are you the cover, poster child?

Jahai 

I think it was my willingness. We didn't really know what the cover was gonna be, and someone pulled me aside and was like, "Hey, I'm gonna take a picture of you." I was like, "Ok, dope. Let's do it." And then I see my face on the cover. I'm like, "Ok, this is cool."

I'yani 

Isn't that a recreation of Michael Jackson?

Jahai 

Yeah, it's a recreation of one of his albums. Not sure which one. But it just happened.

Sanni Brown 

What else is your contribution to the project? Are you speaking on the podcast?

Jahai 

Yeah, I'm mainly talking about, of course, like it's okay to be sad, depressed. It happens to all of us. And I think a lot of people would say, like, "No, you gotta do this. You gotta do that. You gotta smoke, you gotta drink." All these inhibitors, when really, it's you gotta just sit with yourself.

Sanni Brown 

Oh, my goodness, young people, it's hard though. It is hard, though. And I will tell you something as grown up, it gets harder, it gets harder. So is this student led? Outside of the adults going, "Hey, we gotta do a project," how hands-on are they? Or do they just let y'all take the reins?

I'yani 

They say "This is the rubric," basically, and then "go, just do it." Like we know how to make the beats. We know how to find a beat, we know how to record all of it. We know how to play the instruments. We know how to write our own stuff. They're like, "We're here if you need us," but they pretty much just, "This is the stuff that y'all need to hit. This is what we're expecting. Go work your magic."

Sanni Brown 

And y'all scared to step outside this? I mean, you just explained a regular adult day. I gotta figure out how to get food. I gotta figure out how to get to work. Y'all have the skill set. I want to ask you about, "And We're Back on the Ground." Is that from you guys?

Jahai and I'yani 

Yeah!

Sanni Brown 

I love that song so much. And we just put it in the system, maybe like in the last six months or something like that, and I be trying not to play it all the time. Is that connected to any project? Or what's that about?

I'yani  

I don't know, I feel like Marcus is really the person for that question. I hope Marcus hears this, either right now or at some point.

Sanni Brown 

That song cold, man!

I'yani 

Literally! He is so talented, and this man just came out of nowhere. We've been friends, classmates for months, and I did not know that this man can make music, let alone rap. And then he just comes, just trailblazing, just on fire.

Sanni Brown 

The cadence, the word play. And just want to confirm, y'all are teenagers?

Jahai 

Yeah, he was 15 making that song.

Sanni Brown 

He was 15?? Woah. I love that song so much. I love that song. I host Carbon Sound on two platforms, Minnesota Public Radio [The Current] and Carbon Sound. And I be trying my best not to play it. It's such a good song, there's so much soul, there's so much in there packed in that song so I'm like, "Dang, what y'all doin over there?? What y'all putting in the gumbo?"

I'yani 

I really hope that Stone and Marcus hear this. I can genuinely say that I had some of the most talented friends ever. I don't know if I'm biased, but you know when somebody shows you something and it's just not —

Sanni Brown 

Listen, I work in radio, ok. I work in radio so —

I'yani 

But my friends are genuinely talented. And it just makes me so proud and so happy. I'm seeing Yellow Roses do their thing, and then you giving Stone and Marcus that compliment, I want them to hear that so they know people see you and you're doing your spill.

Sanni Brown 

What message do you want to leave for the seniors behind you?

Jahai 

I think, at least for me, that it's important to take that role as a leader. To be a leader is to be uncomfortable, but it gives you so many opportunities and teaches you so much. Don't be scared, take that opportunity, even if it's not like "your thing." It's important to get out your comfort zone. It's so important. I think that's the main thing I want to leave when I graduate.

I'yani 

I will piggyback off Jahai and say being a leader in your own life is really important. It's up to you. I wouldn't be where I was if I didn't speak up and advocate for myself, if I didn't share my likes and my dislikes. And I think that it's really important to ask for help. Don't be afraid to depend on people. Don't be afraid to collaborate. Do not gatekeep stuff and keep stuff hidden. Collaborate with your friends, share your talents and your input, and get theirs on yours. Constructive criticism is very, very helpful. To conclude, my last words for the seniors after me: you can do it, believe in yourself, know in yourself, trust in yourself, all is good. It may get hard, but everything in life is hard. Just pick which one you'd rather deal with.

Sanni Brown 

Pick your hard.

I'yani 

Exactly. Pick your hard.

Sanni Brown  

You said that — don't be afraid to ask for help. So I'm gonna ask you to help me. How can Carbon Sound help young folks like y'all?

Jahai 

I think just more opportunities like this. I always love to preach that having young people come into a space like this, opportunities like this, kinda helps them be like, "Okay, I can be someone. I can do something."

I'yani 

Yeah, I would agree. Literally, opportunities like this are so monumental, because this is like, really professional. It's like, real, it's legit. This is an actual station, and you guys take us serious. You're treating us like adults and taking us serious. And I think that's really important, because a lot of young people are looked over just because they're a young person. And I feel like if more young people were given opportunities to be themselves and to be great, then it's contagious. It'll feed off.

Sanni Brown 

I asked what Carbon Sound can do for you. Now, what I need y'all to do for Carbon Sound is I need y'all to keep that spark inside. For real, for real. I appreciate y'all coming in and inspiring the young folks. And congratulations on your senior year. Take pictures. Just really lean in and enjoy this year, because you only get to be a senior once. Unless you know, you keep educating yourself. Really lock in on the moment and make those memories.

Jahai 

Can I give a shout-out?

Sanni Brown  

Absolutely!

Jahai 

Shout out to my band, Yellow Roses. We have a show on March 13, we just won the first round of Battle of the Bands.

Sanni Brown 

Oh, wow, congratulations!

Jahai 

Thank you. So please check us out on Instagram.

Sanni Brown 

Yellow Roses. What music?

Jahai 

I'd say a hardcore punk band. Be on the lookout.

Sanni Brown 

Well, congratulations. I'yani, anything you want to let us know about? Any projects we need to know about?

I'yani 

I'm just gonna say stay tuned for my foot in the door, because it's coming. Just be patient, because I'm working on some stuff, and my heart is in it. So if my heart is in it, it's true.

Sanni Brown 

I'yani, Jahai, thank y'all for coming in today.

Jahai and I'yani 

Thank you.

Sanni Brown 

Alright, Carbon Sound, we're gonna get back to the music. Y'all, we in Music Class. It's The Message, Carbon Sound, Music for Life. Thank y'all.

Tish Jones stopped by to talk to Carbon Sound’s host Sanni about all things TruArtSpeaks: from their origin story to all the ways they’re celebrating 20 years of their service in 2026.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Sanni Brown 

Carbon Sound Music Class, I got an interview for you. Poet, MC, Hip-Hop Theater Artist and Founding Executive Director of TruArtSpeaks — now entering their 20th year of operation. Carbon Sound family, welcome Tish Jones in the building.

Tish Jones 

Hey, what up. Thank you for having me. Glad to be here.

Sanni Brown 

I'm glad you here. For those who don't know, let's give a elevator pitch for people who don't know who Tish Jones is, and then we'll get into what TruArtSpeaks is.

Tish Jones 

The bio really said it all, kind of succinctly. I'm a poet, I'm an MC, I'm a hip-hop theater artist, organizer, educator. Some people call me an activist. I don't know if I would call myself that, but I do organize and activate people. But really, I'm a Black Auntie at the core, like I show up as a Black Auntie in life.

Sanni Brown 

I love that, I'm an Auntie. When I first started Carbon Sound, they called me the Auntie. So TruArtSpeaks, you've been doing this — as I was doing my radio journey, I would hear about TruArtSpeaks. And you're gonna be entering your 20th year in January. First of all, congratulations.

Tish Jones 

Thank you.

Sanni Brown 

First and foremost, to me as somebody that grew up in the 90s and always heard "You can't do nothing with art. You can't make a living out of art." You're doing rebellious work — 20 years!

Tish Jones 

I appreciate that.

Sanni Brown 

I've seen open mics, I've seen workshops, I think I've seen you give out a couple of scholarships. I believe we worked with a set of students, I think when we first started another show that I host here, that they worked with you. So you're like in the background in these art spaces. So again, congratulations.

Tish Jones 

Thank you.

Sanni Brown 

But first of all, what is TruArtSpeaks? Before we get into longevity and what are you doing to carry the mantle for creatives.

Tish Jones 

We are an arts and culture organization based here in St. Paul. Our mission is to cultivate literacy, leadership and social justice through the study and application of spoken word and hip-hop culture. So really, what it means is we are a cultural preservation institution and we are a cultural exhibition organization. What we are thinking about is how can we utilize spoken word and hip-hop culture to think about transformative, positive social impact. That's our goal. That's our work. How do we keep the tradition? How do we nod back? We really think about Sankofa, right? Like, how do we reach back to the roots of hip-hop culture around the Black genius that created hip-hop culture, the social, political, economic circumstances in which it was birthed, and really highlight, uplift, study and think about those things as we chart a future for ourselves, using hip-hop, which is like one of the most widely recognized languages on the planet. It's a global culture, right? So if you can speak through dance, but you can't speak Japanese, you can go to Japan, do your thing through movement, and still communicate and tell a story. The sort of political activation and narrative storytelling that happens in art here in the U.S., you can see that happening in South Africa when we talk about The Afrikaans Movement and the ways in which hip-hop was speaking to that situation in South Africa. So, you know, we out here. We're trying to train people up. We're working in schools, working in prisons, working in shelters, putting on arts events.

Sanni Brown 

Oh my goodness. You just said a mouthful. Let me run it back. You said cultural preservation and cultural exhibition. That sticks out to me so big, because I see a running theme on social media where they say, "We losing recipes." And you're talking about exhibition. What is the importance of cultural preservation in terms of hip-hop? Because I feel like hip-hop has been exploited so much. So in your words, in your opinion, from your viewpoint, what is the importance of cultural preservation in terms of hip-hop?

Tish Jones 

I think for me, hip-hop is an example of Black ingenuity, and what I think people really want to get at when they say things like Black Excellence. So hip-hop, for us, that was the spirit of our innovation coalescing through multiple different elements. For folks who are not familiar with hip-hop, there are four core elements in hip-hop, and there's an expansive nine, if you are sort of in the community. But when hip-hop started, it started with a party. And it was because of our ingenuity, it was because of our entrepreneurialism, it was because of just cultural things, that if you wasn't 'bout it, you ain't 'bout it, you don't know about it. It was time to go back to school, cats was like, "You know what? Let's throw this party. We can charge at the door, get some fly threads for school." Make it shake, right? And that's the ingenuity. That's the preservation. The preservation piece is like, "Yo, we're actually brilliant. We're innovative, we're resourceful. We create culture." Even DJ Kool Herc, sort of bringing this style from Jamaica. So it's also a diasporic Black ingenuity. Like we are creative, brilliant people in a global context. So even him coming through and changing the way that folks DJ, the way folks listen to and experience music, that's the stuff we're kind of trying to preserve. The history, but also what's behind the history. Especially as the world says hip-hop isn't genius. The world says hip-hop is all bad. And the commercialization, the infiltration of the culture, of the community, the way capitalism came in, you know, quote: "And that's word to Sprite and the millions that they paying me" right? Drake. When people can put the lines in their music so boldly like that, we know that someone else has come into our culture and infiltrated our culture. So we're about like, how do we still teach those skills? Because to DJ is to understand math skills. To be a good, quality dope, fly MC, you have to understand literature. You have to understand poetry, right? There's athleticism, rhythm, math that goes into dancing, right? Being able to catch a beat, or being able to move your body on 1/16 of a beat. Some of those things we don't think about that come naturally, and we can sharpen those skills. And then there's a whole political exploration, if you get into that fifth element, that knowledge of self-peace. There's a social, political and economic history to the etymology of hip-hop that rests in the Black Power Movement, that rests in America's deep intent to destabilize Black communities by building freeways through them, not unlike the Rondo community here in Minnesota. So there's a lot to do. It's a lot to play with.

Sanni Brown 

Wow, the digging. It's a lot of crate digging, but intellectual crate digging. And I feel like this work is so important right now, because I've also been hearing people, I've been looking at videos and stuff — and you got to be careful. Sometimes one person says something, and they turn it into, "Oh, this is a trend." Like, nah, just one person said it. But I've been hearing people say they're tired of rap. And I've even mentioned it on the air, like, "Y'all ain't tired of rap. Y'all tired of that surface level rap." Because humans want to hear stories. Humans are never gonna get tired of storytelling. And so that's what I want to know. How does your cultural exhibition help with that? Because I feel like people saying they're tired of rap, they're tired of what's been exhibited. So what part of your work makes that cultural exhibition so important? Because this conversation is happening while you're doing this work. So are you addressing that? Or this is just what y'all been doing for 20 years?

Tish Jones 

Both and. So for example, to celebrate our 20th-year anniversary, we have an event series coming up. We have a residency at Icehouse for the entirety of 2026, we'll be there once a month. It's beautiful.

Sanni Brown 

That is beautiful. The whole entire year — that's crazy!

Tish Jones  

Yeah, it's gonna be a beautiful thing.

Sanni Brown 

I don't even think I've ever heard of a residency that long. But this is poetry we're talking about, this is hip-hop we're talking about. And you're taking up that much space. Tell us about it, please!

Tish Jones 

Yeah, I got you. So to your question about how are we pushing back against that, and how are we keeping the culture, the series is called the Urgent Emergent Performance Art Series. It's very intentionally curated. Every month there's a different theme. So we're showcasing different types of artists. We're speaking back to different themes in our community, uplifting different folks who are really trying to tell a pressing story based on their craft or their medium. We're launching this series by bringing some sisters in from South Africa who are part of the 29:11 project.

Sanni Brown 

What is the 29:11 project?

Tish Jones 

I'm gonna tell you right now. Go YouTube it, go Google it, because the first time I heard the 29:11 project, when I heard the full group sing —

Sanni Brown 

Is that a choir? I think I've seen them perform.

Tish Jones 

I wept the first time. I mean, like I was on a zoom call. So the way we structure our meetings at our organization is they always start with sharing art. We had a board meeting, and one of my board members that was the art piece that they chose to share that meeting, and the rest of us had to turn our cameras off. Because we were weeping. So we're bringing a small portion of the 29:11 project here, so that these sisters can give us an offering. And the idea, because you know, a lot of the music with the 29:11 project, some of their work is thinking about colonialism and speaking back to colonialism. So we're kicking off this residency like, how do we move from the continent to this place, to a radical Black future? How do we think about colonialism, racism, liberation? What does that look like, and how do we honor, again, Black genius and Black expression? So we're using body, movement, voice, and dance — our people, in this conversation between the continent and where we are right now.

Sanni Brown 

That's so healing. It's just crazy, how you can go from an idea, to these healing practices, to song to movement to sound — everything's incredible.

Tish Jones 

I appreciate you. It's gonna be dope. So we've got the sisters from the 29:11 project. Nomvula, she's headlining. We've got PaviElle French, we've got a voice of culture, DJ Kenna, Blu Bone. And then we got a house band that's gonna be rocking with us throughout the entire series. That's Kevin Washington, Ryan Bynum, and Chris Walah. Every month, y'all. We out here every month. It's gonna be a good time.

Sanni Brown 

If you just pulled up, this gonna be a really exciting year. Poet, MC, hip-hop theater artist, and founding executive director of TruArtSpeaks. All the art baddies, I need you to pull up to the front. If you've been hearing that you can't do nothing with art, I need you to go ahead and throw that out. You are entering your 20th year of TruArtSpeaks and baby, it's gonna be speaking all year. So we're gonna dig into that on this next break. It is The Message, Carbon Sound Music For Life. You are in Music Class, and we'll be right back.

Sanni Brown 

It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music For Life. We are in Music Class. I am super overwhelmed with the energy and essence of Tish Jones. Tish is a poet, a MC, a hip-hop theater artist, and the founding executive director of TruArtSpeaks. We are on part two of this interview. I'm ticked off, because we really need, like, a part three and a part Four. But you are entering your 20th year of TruArtSpeaks, and apparently you have a residency at Icehouse — I've never heard of anything like this before — for an entire year.

Tish Jones 

Shout out to Icehouse. Y'all are fantastic partners. You already know what it is. We've been locked in with Icehouse for years. I appreciate them.

Sanni Brown 

Okay, so if you missed it this last break, we were talking Ryan Bynum, Blu Bone, PaviElle French, the 29:11 project. This is just month one! And I love it, because these are people who believe in what you're doing, so you have clearly proven yourself.

Tish Jones 

The other piece, I'm gonna say — I believe in them. Yeah, they believe in what we do, but I also believe in them. I've known Blu since he was a young person, and I've been watching Blu. It feels like a privilege to be able to invite Blu to participate in this way. Blu actually went through one of our programs. They participated in the Be Heard Minnesota Youth Poetry Slam Series, which is probably like our flagship program, one of the biggest things that we do. And that's back when they were still in high school. I love Blu's Mama, fellow poet, sistren poet in this community. So it's a really full circle moment, because this adult, genius, creative person who I used to just watch paint and be in awe of their painting, and the way they express in that way. Now I'm seeing them express themselves in other ways, and it's beautiful, healing, ritual-based Black work.

Sanni Brown  

Blu Bone is unapologetically Black. That. But I do feel like that's also a testament to the work that you're doing, that this young person came into a space that you created for them, and now they're like, "Yeah, it's on." Now they're performing for you. How did TruArtSpeaks start? How did that start out?

Tish Jones 

I'm gonna try to be as succinct as possible. There are three things that happened that sort of coalesced. And I was like, "Maybe we need a safer space for creatives to be paid equitably and to be safe from financial predators, sexual predators, and be platformed."

Sanni Brown 

I just want to shout out to you and everybody that focuses on that. When y'all come in here and say, "Artists need to be paid equitably." That's huge. That's so huge. When y'all make that a part of your mission, that's so important.

Tish Jones 

I wish we could all get aligned on it. This is such an aside, but I really want to have a conversation with us, you know, actual artist practitioners, about what equitable payment looks like, what equitable pricing looks like, so that we don't sell the culture short, or sell each other out unintentionally. You know what I'm saying? And I think that happens a lot. So if y'all want to holler at me, though, we can have a conversation about it.

Sanni Brown 

That's how I know you doing the work, man. Back to how did TruArtSpeaks start, you were talking about equitable pay for the artists.

Tish Jones 

So there were three things that happened. One, I went to the International Brave New Voices Youth Poetry Slam Festival; I was a young person at that time. The first time I went, I think I was 17, and it was awe-inspiring and eye-opening. There were other 13 to 19-year-olds from all around the world. I'm talking South Africa, Guam, Trinidad and Tobago, New York, Chicago, Idaho, all these places. 600 young people convening to dance, rap. The focus was poetry, but hip-hop was like the cultural container for this festival, and we were speaking truth to power. Most of the writing was political writing. Most of the writing was based on social issues. And it was really a brave new generation of writers and speakers and hip-hop practitioners, learning from the generation before us. Sonia Sanchez, Amiri Baraka and then your hip-hop cast: Queen Latifah, Mos Def, Dead Prez. And I was like, "What this is possible?" You know, "How do I bring this energy back here? How do I make sure that Minnesota has this kind of energy for young people?" At that time, I was 17. Then I was a part of the first B-Girl Be Summit, which was an international celebration of women in hip-hop that happened here, and these women that I love, respect, and served as my mentors. They are the founders of that, right? So being really close to these people who created the first international summit for women in hip-hop, I'm like, "Oh, also, women are brilliant and smart, and we do this, and it's all hip-hop, and I met all these wonderful people." And then there was this tertiary thing around a sadness for me, and an understanding that people didn't necessarily know how to engage with young artists at the time, didn't know how to utilize art towards positive social transformation in a way that was also healthy and healing. So there were some ways I wanted to think about it, like, how do we skill-build? How do we platform? How do we keep folks safe? And then there's all the background stuff, like I said, the inequitable payment, sexual predators, preying on young folks, preying on women in the community. But this tertiary thing was, I worked for this organization, and part of my job in the year that I founded TruArtSpeaks was to catalog the murders that took place in North Minneapolis.

Sanni Brown 

Oh my gosh.

Tish Jones 

Yeah, it was tough.

Sanni Brown  

And how old were you in this position?

Tish Jones 

When I started I was 18, and when I ended, I was 19. So it was a transitional year for me. So I was still very young, and also didn't know. But when I did know, it was like, "Okay, we can't do this anymore." Because part of cataloging it also meant that I had to speak at the vigils of these young people, or of anyone. They weren't all young people, but of people who were murdered. And that year, I knew three of the brothers who were murdered. They were peers. They were my age. We had interfaced in community and in work. And it became very clear, because I had these experiences at Brave New Voices, because I had these experiences with B-Girl Be, that standing on a blood-stained slab of concrete might not be the healthiest way to use my voice. I feel honored to have met with those families. I feel honored to have been able to pay homage to someone's life. But it was very, very tough. So it was this whole thing of like, how can I be a part of ensuring that when we are creating art for social transformation, we're doing it thoughtfully? How can I ensure that we are emotionally safe? Or do my part to create a container where we're emotionally safe, physically safe, paid equitably, because also at that time, as a young person, there was definitely inequity in pay. You platform young people, they could be on stage for an hour. They could teach a workshop with absolutely no training, and be handed 50 bucks. Meanwhile, the person who brought them in —

Sanni Brown 

They got five racks.

Tish Jones 

That's exactly what it is. And it's like, even though they're young, that's inequitable, and we're not teaching them financial literacy by doing that. And I was a victim of that. So yeah, all those pieces are the pieces that made TruArtSpeaks sort of coalesce. We started as a collective. There were a few of us who were like, "Let's do something different. We want to do this art. We want to do guerrilla theater. We want to do hip-hop theater." So we created pieces, we performed publicly everywhere that we could, and it sort of began to take shape into what it is now.

Sanni Brown 

That's powerful, to say that I could do more than stand on this blood-soaked block of cement, wow. And you were so young, but you're a poet too. So you see the world differently. Wow, you were just so young. What do you feel has contributed to the longevity? I feel like that's what you just said. Like how it all started, where it started, the reality of where it started.

Tish Jones 

My answer might be different from other people's answer. And what I appreciate about TruArtSpeaks and even, again, going back to folks like Blu, we have alumni that — people who have been impacted or touched by the work, make the work. I might put an idea out, but people make it happen. It's the people, it's the artists. It's the people all day. That's what did it. It's that I can call PaviElle and be like, "Sis, we celebrating 20 years. I would love to work with you this year." And she — "Say less." It's the power of manifestation. It's like, how intentional we wanted to be this year in our art form. My board chair, he showed the video. I'm like, "Hey, we need them here." And he's like, "Alright, I'm gonna reach out." And then immediately they're like, "Yeah, we know TruArtSpeaks, we down, we coming." It's the people. I just feel thankful and blessed and excited to just be a part of it.

Sanni Brown 

So you said it's the people. Okay, so who is on the TruArtSpeaks team? Let us know who we need to be applauding and clapping it up for.

Tish Jones 

That's what's up. I appreciate that. Got a big shout out to the board, yo. The board of directors is impeccable. So contextually, one of the ways I need to say this, because I say it's the people, right? I have to start by saying, to me, our staff is dope. Y'all know I love y'all. Board is dope. Y'all know I love y'all. But the alumni, I got a sweet spot for the alumni. Because I watched them go and come back and go and come back. I watched them volunteer. I see them make donations. It's such an interesting thing to me to see a person who is 18 years old be like, "Yo, I'm gonna give y'all $50 this year." That's a big deal to me. When you ain't got no job, you in your senior year of high school, you're trying to figure it out, sort it out. Or you go off to college, you come back and you're like, "Here's where I want to be." So I appreciate those folks, because even to do our biggest program, it takes 100 volunteers annually. That's the team that is TruArtSpeaks. Yes, it's Desdamona, yes, it's Aisha, yes, it's MaLLy, yes, it's Danez, yes, it's Anthony. Like, it's all of those people, Ryan, it's us as a core group. But it's also every person who has volunteered for the last 20 years. It's every artist that we've amplified. It's every person we've contracted. It's the videographers we work with, the photographers we work with, the DJs we work with. We have a list of artists on our roster. So there's 60 plus artists who are on this roster who are family. That's who we work with.

Sanni Brown 

Y'all got 60 Minnesota music scene artists in the chamber? What?

Tish Jones 

Oh, for sure. We got this project rolling out. It's a partnership. I can't talk about it yet. I want to so bad, it launches on MLK Day, but we got some artists who are doing some hip-hop facilitation for the littles. And there's a bunch of artists that we working with who are about to make that happen, and it's gonna be beautiful. It's hip-hop education for the small ones, the five and ups. It's gonna be a good time.

Sanni Brown 

I love this. I love the work you're doing. I've always been a fan and to have you in the building, you're just so casually talking about this powerful work. First of all, thank you for not running from that challenge when you were young and you had to catalog those deaths. And you could have ran, and you didn't. You looked deeper, and then you took that real moment of, "You know something? I think I can do something." And just the fact that you were just so young. So now we're here. TruArtSpeaks is here, we are showing that community works, you're giving back to the folks before you, and their wisdom is now being passed down. I feel like y'all in the clutch! Like y'all got it. So what does the future look like? What is 2026 and beyond look like?

Tish Jones 

So this is the thing I was talking about. I was so excited about this little card. My staff, they was like, "This is great." They just weren't excited enough. So 2026 we are celebrating the people who have gotten us here. Again, I'm so clear that TruArtSpeaks wouldn't be here without this community, without the people who make donations, without parents and schools and partners and artists, I'm clear. So this is one way we can celebrate them. We have a member donor base. It's called The Village. The members of The Village, they sustain our work generously. They make a donation to TruArtSpeaks every month, every quarter, annually, they get to choose. And so what we did, I'm gonna say me, because this my idea. I love this idea.

Sanni Brown 

I mean, you have been giving everybody credit, it's alright.

Tish Jones 

This one's my baby. Because I'm like, "Yo, how do I say thank you to these people?" Because when funding dips, when the gig falls through, these are the folks who make sure we still good. And so I created this donor punch card. It's kind of like a coffee card, where you go into a coffee shop, you punch it 10 times and you get a discount, or you get your next one free. So this one, it also honors the people we've worked with for 20 years who are for-profit businesses. So this little punch card has 20 different business logos on it. You go to any one of these businesses, from now until the end of 2026, I'm talking December 31, 2026, present them with this card and you get a 20% discount. So that's what 2026 looks like for us. We celebrating our people.

Sanni Brown 

I hear so much of, "Oh, we need community." And you doing it, man!

Tish Jones 

I appreciate you.

Sanni Brown 

You're doing it on the people level. You're doing it on the business level. This is what art can do people!

Tish Jones 

That's what I'm saying! So you know, (referencing the card) our partners at Flava Cafe, that's where we host our weekly open mic. We've got Moon Palace books on here, we partner with Moon Palace books for our programming. Griot Arts, that's a new partner in our community. There's printing presses on here that we work with all the time. Icehouse is here. Heal Mpls is here, Tongue In Cheek Restaurant. There's 20 businesses on this card. You present this card one time, 20% discount, they'll knock out the logo. Card-carrying members, you can also get it outright if you want to, via our website. But created this for the people, y'all.

Sanni Brown 

I feel like that's your longevity. You so effortlessly pull in people. And I know you believe in them, but they believe in you too. So it's something in there, Tish! It's something in there. So I just want to say thank you. You are inspiring a whole ‘nother generation of artists and creatives. And my goodness to know that this all just started with poetry. Where can we find all this information? How can we keep up with TruArtSpeaks so that we can support too?

Tish Jones 

Got you — www.truartspeaks.org. We are also TruArtSpeaks on all social media platforms. We also outside, holla at us.

Sanni Brown 

I see y'all outside! I'm just floored, because I hear the questions of, "How can we do it?" And you're just out here doing it.

Tish Jones 

They say ask and you shall receive, I just be asking.

Sanni Brown 

Carbon Sound family, get out there and start asking! Thank you, Tish. Thank you for being you. Thank you for what you're doing. And shout out to everybody that has been supporting this. This is community. This is the Minnesota music scene. I want to say, I love you. I don't even know you like that, but — I got love for you Tish.

Tish Jones 

Hey, the love is there! It's mutual, I appreciate you.

BdotCroc sat down with Carbon Sound’s host Sanni and talked about her experience as the In-Arena Host for the Minnesota Lynx this season, finding her voice in music, learning from her losses, and more.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Sanni Brown 

It's The Message, Carbon Sound, Music for Life. And you know what? Everything does come together. She just said this off the mic, but in studio today, the energy in here is absolutely crazy. I know them as one name, but we gonna learn the other name today. North Side Minneapolis artist, MC, entrepreneur, community leader, In-Arena Host for the Minnesota Lynx. I've been watching you on the scene, do your entertainment thing for so long. I know that you also had a show at KMOJ, like I have been watching you. It is so slick to be in here with you and it's just so amazing to have BdotCroc in the building, wow.

BdotCroc 

Thanks for having me, I'm excited. I'm glad we was able to put this together.

Sanni Brown 

I'm really glad because listen, when Bdot say, "Can you come in?" Yes I can come in! Because I know what's going on.

BdotCroc 

I appreciate that for real.

Sanni Brown 

So what's your name? It's Brynne?

BdotCroc 

Yep, Brynne Crockett.

Sanni Brown 

So how do you want me to address you?

BdotCroc 

Bdot is fine.

Sanni Brown 

I like Bdot, that's slick.

BdotCroc 

Whatever's with love and respect.

Sanni Brown 

So I am a low-key fan. I'm just looking at your resume, it's so difficult to even know where to start. IRM Crew?? Like, that's where I want to jump in. So first of all, Bdot is a In-Arena Host for the Minnesota Lynx. So what about your past in your entertainment, in the music that you've made, and the different positions you've had — I've seen you host things for community, for the kids, to tell them about how to make music. How did that prepare you to be the In-Arena Host for the Lynx, and then for this season? Like, wow.

BdotCroc  

My grandma I would say, she's the one that really taught me that I could wear many hats. I remember young feeling, being an artist, I had to be a certain way. Or then working in community with young people, I had to be a certain way. But I really just discovered that, like the Lord says, your gift makes room for you. So I feel like for myself, with the In-Arena Host position, it was a mix of all the things I already loved to do, which was use my voice, build community and connection, cheers and chants, when you think of young people, right? Like call and response. And then being on the stage, I mean performing, right? You want to make sure that the people there are having a good time, and they can feel your spirit and that you're having a good time. And I mean, it's hard not to have a good time when you only lose two games at home. So the Minnesota Lynx, I've been a fan of them forever. You know, just confident women that are really poised, an organization that's really well put together on and off the court. And it just kind of came together. I found out about the audition —

Sanni Brown 

How did you hear about the audition?

BdotCroc 

It was a crazy season in life, actually. I had just transitioned from working full-time as a director for a nonprofit, and I was really trying to see what was for me, like I've grown to be in a space where you want to be in places that you feel the love and the respect. So I was actually going through a really tough transition season, and in March, I want to say — shoutout Jedidiah. He's also a North Polar, I'm a North Polar, I got to shout out the Polars, of course. He was somebody that the athletic director at North Kel had been trying to connect me with, because he did the PA at the Wolves, and he's a Polar as well. And so when we connected, because I've been doing the announcing at North High for their girls and boys basketball for like, almost 10 years now, if not 10 years. And I had a lot of people come up to me after the games, and they would be like, "Really love your voice! Really like your voice!" and it was like, "You should be doing the Wolves or the Gophers or the Lynx." So then Kel connected me with Jedidiah and was like, "Y'all should connect, just in case there's ever any opportunities." So me and Jed probably talked like one time, he just told me he would look out, keep me posted. And then all of a sudden, the Lynx In-Arena Host position dropped, and he sent it to me, and I wanted to be more like the voice, like the person that's just saying the lineups and doing some of that. So he was like, "Nah, man, they looking for an In-Arena Host. I think you'd be perfect for it." And I'm not gonna lie, I didn't feel like I seen people that were reflective of myself, so it was hard to see myself in that spot. But he was like, "I'm telling you, you gonna kill it, just audition." So then I did my audition tape, which I just posted recently on Instagram when I did my end of season wrap up. But it was kind of like, I would say just God. I went in there, I was definitely nervous. I remember I dropped my papers in like slow motion for the script that I was supposed to do. But back to the thing, like you said, everything came full circle doing radio at KMOJ. I learned how to do calls and hits; I could still do my KMOJ hit right now. Everything kind of just came together. And then as I started doing it, like I would just kind of pray before I go out there every game, I was really a student of the game, learning from the other In-Arena Hosts that was present. The team and the staff were really encouraging, they were really motivating, in regards to wanting me to find my own voice, wanting me to be myself, kind of let me off the loop. And then next thing you know, boom, I'm doing it. And it was amazing.

Sanni Brown 

These are the freaking stories. Oh my goodness. I live for stories like that. I love this so much. I feel like there's something magical with the people here on the scene. I hope we capture that here. I hear you talk about God a lot. I'm hearing you talk about God a lot. Is that from your grandmother? Does that play a role in — I'm sorry, I just doubled up with two questions. First, does that come from your grandma? And then, how does that affect your work in the arena, and you working with people and that energy?

BdotCroc 

Man, my mom is a big influence in my life in regards to just having faith and believing in a unbelievable, in sense. She taught me, really, at a young age. I'm her middle child, she has three girls. And she would always say I had such a moral compass, like my mom's life really transitioned and changed when I was like, two years old. So I witnessed that in such a young but real way that I feel like, for me, it was always like I knew God was present. I learned as I got older to build my own relationship with God outside of just religious practices. And I mean, it really impacted me when it's like, you gotta believe, you gotta trust that you're here for a reason, that nobody can get in the way of the reason that you're here.

Sanni Brown 

Except you.

BdotCroc 

Right, except you. And even when people try to get in the way, they really just making another way for you. Because like I said, I was leaving. I had just walked away from a full-time position that I was like, "Man, what am I gonna do? I don't know." And then God was like, all of a sudden, boom, the Minnesota Lynx. And I don't know if this opportunity would have came up if I was willing to stay in that environment. You gotta let go of something to get something else.

Sanni Brown  

That stuff, that's so crazy when you got to let go.

BdotCroc  

Yeah, sound good in the testimony, but the testimony is scary.

Sanni Brown 

Because it's just you and the door.

BdotCroc 

Just you and the door.

Sanni Brown 

Tell me about this season, the experience of this season. It's been a crazy year all around in every industry, but just tell me about this season with the Lynx and your position.

BdotCroc 

The WNBA is in such a pivotal position right now, like it's got more visibility than it ever has. It helps to be a part of a franchise that is a winning franchise. I mean, they've won four championships. I feel like for myself just coming in, I had to learn how to be present, because I've been a fan so long. I was a fan — I'm still a fan. But like, it's different when you working in the space, like how we talking even with the interviews.

Sanni Brown 

That's how I feel right here. It's different when I'm watching y'all as a consumer of your content, and then I'm sitting here because — I feel like I'm a peer, but I'm a fan though!

BdotCroc 

Yeah, it's a mixture.

Sanni Brown 

Thank you for saying that. That's why I be fanning about y'all. I've been consuming, I'm watching your career, and it's explosive to watch you go from this to, wow, where you're at.

BdotCroc 

I'm shook too. I'm fanning out over me too, a lot of the times. Like, what? Bdot, what you doing out here, man?

Sanni Brown 

Highs and lows of the season?

BdotCroc 

I mean, we can just get straight to the low. The low is definitely just not being in the finals, feeling like things didn't go in the way that we desired, getting that injury bug closer to the end of the season. We were able to fight through most of the season. And adversity, I mean, we've dealt with just challenging calls since last year, I feel like, even when we were in the finals. So it's just been tough to see a group of women that work so hard, that are so dedicated and there for each other, even with Napheesa Collier being like the superstar, she's not there, as if "I'm the superstar," like she's there amongst her peers, just really being a leader, motivating. And then you got Cheryl Reeve, who's an amazing head coach that obviously very passionate about her players, she's gonna speak her mind. She's always been that way. That's something I've always admired about her, is like she speaks up and says the things that people, you know, whether they want to hear it or not, she's gonna say it. And then you got the StudBudz who went crazy this season with their live stream, like Courtney and T, they're phenomenal. There's so many players that had so many amazing things happen this year. So like, the lows is the lows. But all in all, when we did our end of year celebration, it was really dope just to watch them celebrate. A lot of them have been working hard to be where they're at, and to now be together, celebrating those highs together. Alanna Smith, doing Defensive Player of the Year, Phee being up for MVP, you got most wins in they history, and you coming from some legendary players like Rebekkah, Lindsay, Seimone, Maya, like it's so many names you could say that are powerhouses. So I feel like they're a new generation that's coming and going to continue to develop. The high was just being in the energy, being able to interview them, to being able to see them in passing when they're going out for warm ups, or being able to connect with the front office and getting opportunities to do different things within the organization. I got to do a voice over for one of the commercials this year, that was super amazing. They be fanning and supportive of me, and I be feeling the same way about them. So it's all been just like, divine. That's the best way to explain it.

Bdot in action

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Sanni Brown 

I want to jump right into this question, what can you tell young people who are striving for their dreams, who are looking at you and they're at the beginning, they're just kind of like having the dream, but they're scared — what can you tell them about these losses? Because you're around superstars, and even they lose. And I'm sure you've taken losses. What can you tell the next generation about how to deal with these losses, man?

BdotCroc 

Man, it's really not how you win. It's really how you lose.

Sanni Brown 

Hold that — we're gonna say that for the next break. We are in studio with BdotCroc, dropping gems, giving us the little deets, the little sweets on Minnesota Lynx as In-Arena Host, we will be right back. I'm just so excited. Thank you so much for being here.

BdotCroc  

Thanks for having me.

Sanni Brown 

We are back in studio with BdotCroc. It is The Message, Carbon Sound, Music for Life. BdotCroc hails from the North Side of Minneapolis, artist, MC, entrepreneur, community leader, In-Arena Host of the Minnesota Lynx. And we are in part two, and I want to finish up this conversation about it's how you lose that matters —

BdotCroc 

Yeah, it's not how you win, it's how you lose.

Sanni Brown 

Exactly. And you are an In-Arena Host for a superstar basketball team. Your earlier career, you started out in music, and now you are among these superstars, because you are a superstar. It's the energy, you are amongst the kings and queens. But what did you mean when you say it's how you handle the loss? Because we could just give that to the young folks and move away, dig deeper into that. What do you mean?

BdotCroc 

Everybody's happy when you're winning. Everybody feels good. You may still see some things you want to work on in the win, but in the win, you think that's the overall, like, you got it. Where a loss really teaches you where you don't have it, where you need to grow, where you want to push. And the loss, really, to me, is sometimes bigger than the win because it makes you make adjustments. The only way to really lose is to quit. You can lose a game, you can lose a job, but as long as you don't lose yourself in the midst of the loss, then there's really no loss. You'll gain something. And once you have that experience of what's your attitude like, what's your heart posture when you take a loss, when things don't go your way, how do you readjust? How do you treat the people around you? Because it's also easy to be friendly to everybody when you're winning, but what's your spirit and what's your soul when you're not winning, when you're losing? So I just say to young people, get comfortable in the uncomfortable. Get comfortable in the losses, because they will teach you more than wins ever will, for sure.

Sanni Brown 

There's information in the losses.

BdotCroc  

So much information.

Sanni Brown 

I tell everybody that comes through here, they was telling me no so bad in radio, oh my God. They were telling me no so bad. I was begging these people to let me in radio. And I had to humble myself and be like, "Well, are you sure you're sounding your best?" When people hear me sound my best, baby, it's because I was at my worst. And I had to listen to myself and really dig in. I really want to hone in for the next generation there is information in the losses. And if you can just slow down and get out your feelings and your pride, you'll be able to see that. What type of losses did you have that almost didn't give us the Bdot that we got today?

BdotCroc  

Man. I mean, you name it, from being in hip-hop and being a young girl growing up in the 90s and then coming into the 2000s and how things kind of shifted in regards to representation of women in the industry. There were many times where I was like — I mean, I've been rapping since I was eight years old. I stopped —

Sanni Brown 

And you can rap! I be trying not to play your stuff all the time.

BdotCroc 

I really found my voice in music, that's what I learned. Music really tried to steal my voice at one point, I feel like. Where it wanted me to talk about a certain thing, be about a certain thing, look a certain way. It really challenged my identity. So I feel like as I grew stronger in myself, I grew stronger in my MCing, which I believe the power of the tongue, the power of words. When you on this mic, whatever way in which you're on it, if you're delivering news content, if you're delivering music, if you're delivering just a good time and hosting, your words hold weight. They carry vibrations. They can connect with people. They can cause help, or they can cause harm.

Sanni Brown 

Shameless plug, that's why the name of the show is called (The) Message!

BdotCroc 

Because it's in the message! You gotta make sure you carrying it. So for me, I don't look at them as losses now, but I just feel like, for myself, a lot of the losses I felt like I was taking was like, I was losing things that didn't belong to me. Whether that's certain, like I said, personalities, or things of that nature. I lost the idea that I was supposed to be a certain way, or have a certain way, especially being a hip-hop artist in Minnesota, born and raised from here, proud to be from here, not ever wanting to act like I was from anywhere else, people wanted me to lose that. A lot of people wanted me to claim a different coast, because I sound like, they'd say, "Oh, you can rap rap. You must be from the East Coast."

Sanni Brown 

That's interesting you said that, you don't. That's why you stick out to me.

BdotCroc 

Yeah? We got a sound here. We just got to trust it. That's the one thing I love about being from the Midwest and being from Minnesota, you get a chance to figure out what you should sound like. What you want to sound like. You don't got an expectation to sound — because, I mean, who you gonna sound like, Prince? That's one of the greatest to ever do it. You can't mimic greatness.

Sanni Brown 

You ain't gonna really bubble above "Oh, we like it."

BdotCroc 

Yeah. "That's cool."

Sanni Brown 

That's a very Minnesota response, "Yeah, that's cool."

BdotCroc 

"That's nice." Minnesota nice.

Sanni Brown 

I like that. I am a performer, so I've performed, and if you cool, they'll give you an applaud. But if you cool, they will watch you, but then they'll explode at the end. And speaking of that, I want to get to the kids. You said you've been working with kids for two decades. On purpose?

BdotCroc 

On purpose. Now that comes from my grandmother for sure. Like working in community, I just at a very young age, got exposed probably during high school, and then once I graduated high school, to community work and what that felt like, and what it felt like to really be a part of a community in a way, where I was like, I already go to North Community High School, people have so much pride about being a Polar, you got people that no matter what year you graduated, alumni presence is heavy. So that was one lens of community. And then being from the North Side of Minneapolis, the kids I would work with in community, I would see them or their parents out, whether that's at the grocery store, at an event, or wherever I was. So it really just built this passion and love to see those young people that I grew up around flourish in whatever ways, whether that was working with them in the Beats & Rhymes program through the YMCA, or being a mentor and supporting them in they life journeys, whether we talking about relationships or we talking about where they want to be in regards to work, or if they want to do music, I started to notice the level of influence I had, and that made me hone in. That shaped Bdot. That is Bdot. The kids in my community made Bdot.  I've always been Brynne forever, but they're the reason that I am who I am. It's funny because the kids or my community, the Minnesota Lynx is getting exposed to Bdot now, in that sense, but like you said, how you've even watched me. A lot of people are like, "What? How you don't know about Bdot?? Bdot been a superstar, y'all late." But I love that, because I'm also showing young people that you can continue to evolve as you get older. Like, I remember being young and thinking I had to be successful or doing this by this point, or I don't want it. It's like no, you'll love success at whatever time it meets you. Continue to grow, continue to evolve. Every single thing I've done has led me to exactly where I am right now. So for me, even with the young people, that's why I laugh, when we would be in the arena and it was loud, that was one of my favorite days, was the days where the kids came during the summer from their camps, and it's like, that's cheers and chants. That's all I know in regards to call and response and getting young people's energy turned up, like they give you what you need to give them. So that's why I love that work, and doing that work is so intentional, because I got inspired by people around me, but a lot of times also by things I seen. So I know how important it is for them to see me in these spaces, so they can see themselves. Because I'm reachable, they know they could reach out to me, talk to me, DM me, so that was the biggest thing. When I posted that I got the In-Arena position, my kids went crazy.

Sanni Brown 

I'm not gonna lie, I felt like I won.

BdotCroc 

That's what everybody said, they like, "Man, it felt like we won." And I'm like, "We did! Shoot." That's what it is, it is a win for everybody. I love that. I love that it doesn't feel like it's just me.

Sanni Brown 

Bdot, I'm crying. Your energy is so dope. Your energy, your story, it's dope. Thank you for being you. You gave me a story to look at. You are so dope. I've worked with kids for 25 years, and I know the type of spirit you gotta have to work with kids. The thing that I love about kids so much is they filter. They tell you the truth. And so the fact that the kids love you man, and the community love you man, and it's all love from me.

BdotCroc  

I feel like the kids let you know you close to God, because they the closest to God in my opinion. Like you said, they ain't got no reason to lie, they gonna be like, "That's whack. I don't like that."

Sanni Brown 

"Why you do that? Ew your breath stink." They'll tell you straight up.

BdotCroc 

Straight, no filter. But I love that.

Sanni Brown 

The way they are, the way they pull up, can see the way young people are around you.

BdotCroc 

I've been doing it so long now, one of my first young people I ever worked with, he is now married with children, I'm his child's God mom, and that to me is exactly what it's about. The real-life relationships, that means more than any accolade that I could ever receive. Even with the In-Arena position, the way the fans message me and tell me I make them feel, and how they can feel my spirit. I love that, it means the most to me. It's cool to be on TV, and all of those things are super amazing. I'm super grateful. But nothing is more fulfilling than knowing that you're impacting people in a way that makes them feel good.

Sanni Brown 

Well, you a hero out here. You know who you remind me of? MC Lyte.

BdotCroc 

Oh man, I've been getting that since a really little kid. I remember when I was young, and they was telling me about MC Lyte, and I've had the opportunity to meet her, I've had the opportunity to perform with her. And it's God, that's the only way I could say it, I look at those opportunities even hearing things like that, having pioneers like that, that were doing this way before me, and were willing to give back in the culture in different ways. That's what I desire to continue to do, is push it, pay it forward.

Sanni Brown 

This is what it's about, young people. This is what it's about. These are the real superheroes, no joke, man. I'm so glad you had the time. I got to ask. I have to ask this. Bdot found an early mentor in her uncle, Kelly Crockett, AKA rapper Kel-C, he performed locally with the IRM Crew. Bdot, let us know what that's about. Because I know the IRM Crew, that's hip-hop here. That's hip-hop history, baby.

BdotCroc 

That's my uncle. I grew up rapping in the basement. That's how I learned how to rap, was my uncle Kel. Him, his son, and my cousin, John, J hard, we all was just in the basement mimicking him, he was really punchy rapper. If you know my uncle, Kel, you know his personality, you know his charisma, you know his performance. He was my introduction to hip-hop. My favorite rapper was my uncle as a kid. I didn't start noticing and listening to other rappers until down the line, so I didn't grow up with, like, "Oh, this is my influence. This is who I'm going after." It was really off the cuff. And my uncle was a super big freestyler. Een being able to go off the top in the arena where you might have to go off script, you have to think of something, I got all that from him. So shoutout, my uncle Kel-C. That's my heart right there.

Sanni Brown 

And for my audience, I say off the top. You said off the top, that's the difference between freestyling and off the top. So that's why you can rap. You got hip-hop royalty!

BdotCroc  

That's in my DNA right there.

Sanni Brown 

Okay well, young folks, go check our IRM Crew. That's why I had to pause and throw that in before we leave, out of hip-hop history, out of North Minneapolis, out of respect. I'm from Chicago, but I respect here big time. Bdot, I thank you so much. You are so amazing. Your vibe speaks for itself. When they say your energy introduces you, baby! Okay, you the poster child for that. It is so dope watching you. We really feel like we winning when you out there. So just know what you really represent us. And thank you so much for being in here. Where you gonna be? What you gonna be doing?

BdotCroc  

You might catch me in another arena. I don't know if I can announce where yet, but I'm definitely gonna be popping out in other places. I'm excited.

Sanni Brown 

I'm so excited for you! Oh my goodness. Okay, so I'm gonna stalk you some more. Thank you, Bdot!

BdotCroc  

Thanks for having me, too. I appreciate y'all reaching out. I appreciate y'all giving me this platform and this opportunity. However I can continue to support y'all let me know, thank you. I really appreciate all the people — MPR did a great story on me in regards to when I got the position and came in, and all that makes a huge difference. Like, I've been knowing about MPR, hearing about MPR, even connecting with John at other avenues. I love to see everybody walking in they purpose full circle. Let's keep building, y'all. That's how we keep that's how we keep this thing strong.

Sanni Brown 

I love that, Bdot. Thank you so much.

BdotCroc 

Thank you.

XINA stopped by to talk to Carbon Sound’s host Sanni about her IRON X EP, opening up for Duckwrth in Chicago, XINAVERSE, and more.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Sanni Brown 

It is The Message, Carbon Sound, Music for Life. We are in music class. I've been talking about this all week; I'm so excited. In studio, I have a piece of the local scene that I have personally been following myself. She is independent, this is why this is so exciting, independent, self-produced, multidisciplinary artist based in Minneapolis. And if you ask her what she does, she'll say "arts and crafts." And baby, we need to know exactly what that is about. Ladies and gentlemen of the Carbon Sound family, welcome XINA. Welcome!

XINA 

Thank you, good to be here.

Sanni Brown 

It's good for you to be here! It's a trip to be sitting and talking to you. I've always consumed all of your music and your performances, and it's just really dope to be sitting in studio with you.

XINA 

Likewise! I get to see all the dope stuff you're doing on the scene, and I feel blessed to be in your presence.

Sanni Brown 

Thank you. Let's get to it! So straight out the gate, you are an independent artist.

XINA 

100%.

Sanni Brown 

And this is exciting to me, because I grew up in a time where independent artists, that's like foreign words. And so to watch you, because I knew you from being in radio, and your voice is what caught me. You have an amazing, soulful, you caught my ear with your voice. What are the pros and cons of being an independent artist? Because we're seeing the successful side — excuse me, I see the successful side. Duckwrth sees the successful side. So what are the pros and cons to being an independent artist, self-produced, multidisciplinary?

XINA 

Well, I will say I am independent in a lot of different senses. I think when we hear independent artists, it's like, you're not signed to a label. That's kind of like baseline what that is an indicator of. I am just very independent in every aspect of my creative process as well.

Sanni Brown 

So that's what you mean, independent artist?

XINA 

Yeah, I mean, both, right? Everything is done in-house. Everything is done mostly with just me, or where I can source assistance. Pros and cons though, I think being able to truly be at the center of your creative vision. I've honestly never been signed to a label, so I can't really speak to what that experience is like, but from what I hear, there can be a lot of different sort of hats in the ring, a lot of different checks and balances. Then you're dealing with bureaucracy, you're dealing with ownership, stuff like that. I've just always been very empowered to have ownership, both creatively and on the business side of what I do. And honestly, these days, I feel like it's kind of the only way, from what I hear.

Sanni Brown 

So what I'm hearing is you're independent in the sense of, no, you don't have a label, but you're also independent in the creative process. You don't have a bunch of people telling you what to do. Is that really important to you, or did you just fall into that and it's working for you? Like, was that the intention at the beginning?

XINA 

That's always just kind of been my natural inclination. I think everybody is so different, but for me, I spent a lot of time just honing my authenticity and really finding my voice. And for me, I had to do that by myself. There's so much outside influence that we might not even be aware that we are taking in and emulating. So for me, it was and still is very much a solitary practice. That's how I just maintain my authenticity, I think.

Sanni Brown 

I see you mention that a lot on your posts on social media, and your most recent project is called IRON X. I had to sit with that for a little bit. I like how you connect all of your projects to you, like XINAVERSE is that series of performances that you've done with a variety of artists around the Twin Cities, but IRON X, is the spiritual awakening of the self-identified. That's the work that you've been promoting on IG lately, right?

XINA 

Yes.

Sanni Brown 

Okay so here is where I stand. I feel like, when I first heard you, I heard like feminine, like angelic. I felt like I felt that in the, was it PUSH and PULL or something like that project?

XINA 

Throwback.

Sanni Brown  

Yeah! And that's where I first heard of you. And I was like, "Oh, this is cool." Could you help me understand that, was it two different projects?

XINA 

That was sort of a two part album. So yeah, there was sort of PUSH and PULL; it was kind of like a lighter side and a darker side.

Sanni Brown 

I love that you do that! I can so clearly see you play with things that contrast. That's what intrigues me about IRON X, because from what I remember, it seemed like really angelic and deep soul with the PUSH and PULL. And then this is, like intense and dark, so the what's the transition between the two? Why start this out this way? What was happening here, and then what changed?

XINA 

You clocked that, I love it. I love it. So I still have a lot of music that is unreleased, and the variety, the range of the textures that I like to explore is vast. So this project, IRON X, is a collection of songs that carry that, like, grungy, kind of sinister intensity.

Sanni Brown 

It reminds me of alternative music from the 90s.

XINA 

Cool.

Sanni Brown 

That's the vibe that I get from it. Is that on purpose, or this is just you? That's what it sounds like.

XINA 

That's just me. There's obviously influence inherently in what I do, so I can't necessarily say that that's not part of it.

Sanni Brown 

That's what I'm hearing.

XINA  

I'm just a part of a long lineage of music, right? But I also focus a lot on just trying to pull from within, versus —

Sanni Brown 

Why is that so important to you?

XINA 

I just often witness a lot of artists who I don't get a sense of authenticity from, and I think that art is — the act of expression, we'll say, is always a good thing. I think it's a healthy practice for anyone who's creatively inclined, express yourself, do that, right? But it is also very oversaturated in some sense, and I'm not ever trying to say like anybody shouldn't engage with creating music or expressing themselves, but a lot of sh*t doesn't move me.

Sanni Brown 

Nah I feel you.

XINA 

To be real.

Sanni Brown 

To be real. Heard. Felt.

XINA 

It really is when someone is truly pulling at what is authentically them. I don't know, it creates a sense of vulnerability. You can recognize somebody's idiosyncrasies, and that's when it really resonates for me. When people have taken the time to really find what their voice is. Because, for example, if we're just talking about singing, a lot of people are really good singers, right? And good singers can often sing like other singers very well, and you're singing along to the music you grew up listening to, whatever the case. And you're sort of emulating these runs or whatever. And it's like, my voice has changed a lot over the years, and that has just been because of the excavation and the discovery of what is my true, authentic voice. Cutting out the, you know.

Sanni Brown 

And I know there's a story back there, that sounds like that's a story back there.

XINA 

It's been a journey, you know?

Sanni Brown 

Is that what you poured into IRON X?

XINA 

Certainly. I think IRON X is a really good example of what I've discovered along that journey. It does have range, even though it is sort of a certain corner of my artistic sensibilities, you can still get a sense of like, you get the sort of industrial, almost like grungy hip hop beats. You also get some of the orchestral, softer soundscapes and stuff like that. But yeah, it feels very true to me, through and through.

Sanni Brown 

It feels like it's true, what you're putting into it. So I'm gonna pause here, because I can talk to you for the next hour. And I want you to know I'm using my inside voice, because I heard that you don't like all that loud noise.

XINA 

Oh, you sweet. Honestly, when it's one-on-one, like, I can take it. I do get overstimulated, but that's with like crowds. You're funny.

Sanni Brown 

I've got my notes on the people that I like, and that's what I was wondering, did you mean like, when you're performing, or did you mean just in general, you're not up for the loud noises?

XINA 

When I'm performing, I like to be loud, and I like to be quiet. I just appreciate dynamic. I don't like to go to a show where the volume stays here the whole time. A lot of people, I think, feel like, just make the music as loud as it can be, and that's gonna sound good. And that's not it for me.

Sanni Brown 

I love how you put these pieces of XINA that we can't see, into everything that you do. I want to dig into that on this next break. We gotta take a break, but I want to dig into that because I could tell that you are literally pulling from everything of you and putting it into everything. You can just tell. I mean, that's the frequency that I'm picking up. So we'll be right back on The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life, I have XINA. And if you feel these feels, this is because this is the vibes that she got. We're gonna dig more into IRON X and the meaning of the spiritual awakening you were talking about that's connected to that. Coming up on The Message, Carbon Sound, Music for Life. Don't go nowhere.

Sanni Brown 

We are in studio with XINA, independent, self-produced, multidisciplinary artist in Minneapolis, and she brought the vibes today, baby. I love it, the looks and the vibes. Thank you so much for sharing time with us. Now in the last break, if you missed it, we just got to know XINA, just the recipe that she's putting into her artwork, which caught the eye of Duckwrth. What's that about? Because I thought he just took — I'm so used to Minnesota musicians being great, and then just somebody from outside town just snatch y'all up. So I just assumed that was your moment. He snatched you up. I mean, it looked like it! But then I got the details, and it was like, no, you opened up for him in Chicago. That's insane. How was that like? How did that even happen?

XINA  

It was great. He's on tour right now, The All American Freak Show, which just resonated with me. I love being freaky and creepy and all that. So he was putting out a call for artists in various cities to come and open for him. And a bunch of people had tagged me under that post. And I was like, "You know what? There's certainly an alignment there, right?" And it worked out. I went to Chicago, opened that show. It was great. His audience was very ready to receive the weirdness.

Sanni Brown 

I mean, it's Duckwrth, I would presume they'd have the open mind for that.

XINA 

Certainly. Yeah, great crowd. It was really a positive experience, very fleeting, though. I was only on stage for 20 minutes, which, the last show I did was my IRON X release show, and my set was damn near an hour and a half, which was crazy. So yeah, it went very quickly, but it was really positive. And Duckwrth is so sweet and really a down-to-earth genuine person, and I feel like that's a great connection now, and hope to keep it alive. We'll see what comes of it in the future.

Sanni Brown 

The thing that sticks out for me the most is in the last break you talk so much about pulling, excavating is the word you used, from within yourself, and I really want, because my audience is young, it's the next generation. I don't want young people to miss the moment of how you've been authentic, and how you pulling from this and you creating this artwork, and how all of that aligned from you pulling from within yourself. And so I always like to highlight that, because that shows how powerful this inner world is and how it can shape our outer world. I just wanted to pause on that part first, but now, before we even get into IRON X, please tell me about XINAVERSE, because for me that was a whirlwind, because it was just you were here, and then you were here, and then you were here, so could you tell me about XINAVERSE?

XINA 

XINAVERSE, a series of parties that I've thrown, highlighting Black femme musicians on the scene, transitioning into an after party with pole dancers, highlighting the sex work scene, and really wanting to mostly create a space where pole dancers can do their thing, and it's safe and it's fun and it's not competitive. There's a pole dance scene here that, there are opportunities to perform, but a lot of it is competitive or maybe it's not at all like a Black and Brown space, or it's, I don't know. I wasn't really feeling personally pulled to the pole dance community, so I wanted to create my own space where I felt like dancers could express and be empowered. And, oh, it's been so much fun. It's been so fun every time. I kind of took a little break from them, but I definitely want to have another soon.

XINAVERSE (Vol. 1) photos

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Sanni Brown 

I love it. I appreciate that as a musician, and you're a dancer too. And so I'm a dancer, so to hear you creating space, I've actually gone to dance practices that were supposed to be safe spaces, and the person turned it into a competitive space. I will never forget this, it shifted the room so oddly. And so that's why that stuck out to me, that you said you created a space where it's not competitive, that's a different dancing space. So I want to say thank you for that.

XINA  

That's always my intention. You know, things kind of go wherever, but I think it has been successful so far, and I'm hoping to keep that container a very positive space.

Sanni Brown 

Yeah, I love that. Now, IRON X, I love how you put you into everything. Why IRON X? What is it? Because I think iron, I think hard. Why? What does the iron signify?

XINA  

I would love to tell you. So IRON X, first of all, is a pole move. It's the crazy one where it's like, you're sideways, I do it a lot. So there's the alignment there with just the X, which I use a lot in my movement. That's the name of the pole move. It's also the sonic palette of the project is very metallic. It feels very industrial. There was a tool that I used to create a lot of those sounds to sort of keep the identity really cohesive, but it just felt metallic to me. There's a lot of references to metals within the lyrical content, and obviously the production. So yeah, that's kind of the gist of the title IRON X. It fits with the brand and all that.

Sanni Brown 

What is the message? These are irons, these are metals, what is your message? Because what I'm hearing, because you say, "The spiritual awakening of the self-identified." What does that mean? And does that connect to the IRON X, to the metals?

XINA 

In a perhaps non specific way, yes. The project in itself is sort of a reflection of the self-discovery that I've been speaking on, and a lot of it was written at a time when I was really discovering myself, discovering where my boundaries are, discovering where other people might have had me f*cked up. And so the project is about empowerment, and I hope when people listen to it, they feel empowered. I sort of channel this darker feminine energy that feels very supported, very sturdy, very metallic, if you will, so that's the gist of it.

Sanni Brown 

Oh, I like that. No, I like that because, again, you said I clocked it, so I must've got it right. It was softness that I gathered from your previous, and then this hardness. As a woman, we're just told to be soft, and sometimes you don't find that metal inside you until you push back, like you said, people had you messed up — ah, I love it. I'm going through something similar. I think in this world, as a woman, I don't know that you're allowed to be aggressive, or you're allowed to be angry, or "I don't understand this," you're not allowed. And so I like that, and I like that you are detailing that, and that you are being vulnerable to show that. Because again, I think social media makes us think every transition, everything has to be pretty and growing in the spiritual self — that ain't pretty at all. It's ugly, it's so ugly.

XINA 

And there's so many different flavors that —

Sanni Brown 

That's not even right to call it ugly. I think a proper, fair word is messy. Because we're humans, and we've got like you said, when we sing, we're pulling from all of these different things. When we walk, everything we do, we're pulling. And then you got to stop and go, "Which one of these is mine? How much of this is me?" And so what I'm gathering from this is, this is what this is, but for XINA.

XINA  

Yeah. Honestly, I'm remembering now, there was a larger album that sort of encapsulated this energy that I'd made years ago, and overall it felt a little bit too dark, and I didn't want to put too much of that energy into the world. I wanted to really pick the things that felt like they weren't driven by anger necessarily, but more like self-awareness and empowerment. So those are the tunes that I stuck with, and for example, "PURE POTENTIALITY,” that's one of my favorite tunes on the EP. And pure potentiality is a spiritual concept, Deepak Chopra's seven spiritual laws of success, if you're familiar. It's perhaps the first one of those laws, but it's about manifestation. And that in particular I love, because it is a very high vibrational song lyrically, and the intention that I infuse into it is very much that of manifestation, being tapped into this unlimited source energy, but it's in this package of a really sexy, sort of grungy sonic palette, which I appreciate, because a lot of high vibrational music I feel like is kind of corny. So I wanted to still feel sexy and grungy, but have a message that is aligned with my spiritual intention if that makes sense. So I love that track in particular.

Sanni Brown 

I do like that one, that one stuck out to me. There is so many different flavors, like you said, it's your voice, and how you put everything around your voice is really something, because when I hear you, it's just like pure, like honey, your voice is deep and soulful, and then you've got all these different, like contrasting sounds around it, and yet it works.

XINA 

I love juxtaposition, which you already, you clocked that.

Sanni Brown 

I have to say, you do it really well. You package it really well, and you present it really well. And I do think that's why I just I can't stop taking my eyes off you, and I can't stop listening to you. I love the work you do. Anything that we need to know, anything that us XINA fans — I didn't ask this, but audience, if you ever run into XINA and you ask, what does she do, she says, "Arts and crafts." You're the arts and crafts CEO. At first, I was like, "I don't like that," because to me, I feel like you do so much, but I respect it.

XINA 

It's kind of tongue in cheek. I do a little bit everything, and I'm very DIY, like, I use safety pins a lot of the time. It's part of the accessories that I like to pull from, and it just signifies really, sort of patching things together in a really sort of, sometimes a chaotic way. But I don't know, it's an umbrella term, I'm an artist before I am a musician, before I'm a dancer, whatever. It's just any medium that I can get my hands on. So it's a little bit satirical, but arts and crafts, you know what I mean?

Sanni Brown 

I think I picked up on the satirical first. I think I was like, "I don't like that. I feel like she's not encompassing everything that she does."

XINA 

But it does though, you know?

Sanni Brown 

I was like, "Okay, I rock with it, I see."

XINA 

And it's light hearted. I don't wanna be too serious.

Sanni Brown 

I'm glad you said that, because sometimes, like how you said the high vibrational stuff can be corny, sometimes when you be like, "What you do?" "Oh, I'm a rapper, dancer, ..." like dude, you can't sum that up? You ain't got no pitch?

XINA 

I don't wanna go through the list. We don't need to talk about me like that. You can find out, arts and crafts.

Sanni Brown 

And you're right, it gives people — that's what I like about you. You have a "It's here if you need it." I like that about you. "It's arts and crafts, if you want to know more, come find me, baby." And where can we find you, XINA? Because I stalk you, so my channels is different.

XINA 

Well, you can definitely find me on Instagram, for better or for worse. I do have a website, xinaverse.com, there's gonna be more offerings there. Gonna be also using YouTube a lot more, I love visual arts as well. Been getting a lot into film and cinema, graphic work.

Sanni Brown 

I saw a promo you did. You definitely have an eye for the visual.

XINA 

Yeah, so I've been shooting a lot and editing and directing for a very long time, but more recently, getting into the behind the camera and the color grading and the storytelling in that way. So excited to continue to integrate that with the music and keep sharing.

Sanni Brown 

And I'm excited to see what you do with it, because you definitely have a good eye. I appreciate you so much for coming in.

XINA 

Thank you for having me.

Sanni Brown 

You are such a great vibe.

XINA 

We done already? That was so quick, I could yap for days.

Sanni Brown  

I be trying to tell people, it goes fast around here, man. But thank you so much, XINA, thank you, thank you. And I'll be in your comment section, trust.

XINA 

Okay, I'll meet you there.

Sanni Brown 

Thank you! It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. Thank you again, XINA.

XINA 

Thank you, Sanni.

Marvelous and Skye from The Cherry Pit sat down with Carbon Sound’s host Sanni and talked about all that The Cherry Pit has been up to — from their “Bible Study” open jam sessions that take place almost every Wednesday at Berlin, to upcoming events that continue to prioritize intimacy and connection.

Sanni

It's The Message, Carbon Sound, Music for Life. We have another interview for y'all, yay! I have no idea who these people are (laughs) so I'm excited. I am brand new with everybody, but Marvelous and Skye from The Cherry Pit. Marvelous is a composer, pianist, vocalist, organizer and more, and The Cherry Pit is a band, and a creative organization based in Minneapolis. Welcome, The Cherry Pit. How are you doing the band life and creative organization? It's always interesting to me when you have people that are a band, I feel like that's a bag of chaos in and of itself, and then you're a creative organization that's also serving creatives in the Twin Cities. Tell us about The Cherry Pit first. Let's do that first, one thing at a time.

Marvelous 

Yeah, so for many creative people, there is not the optimal space to express yourself in a way that is received in a human way. And when I was 17, 18, I felt that way very strongly, and I was expressing myself alone in practice rooms, not even really showing my friends. And then I found that I had this nasty basement that I could turn into a beautiful space, and so I revamped it and started hosting jam sessions every week in Madison, Wisconsin. And so Cherry Pit started there, and moved here to the Twin Cities in 2020, and has always been grounded by jam sessions based in improvisation.

Sanni

Wow. Ooh, that's delicious. When I first came to Minnesota, I joined, it was like a community organization where they danced and where creatives can go. And I remember that was when I was introduced to jam sessions. So I'm super interested in — where did you even learn about jam sessions? How did you know that's a thing? Or do you feel like you just naturally gravitated to that?

Marvelous 

Well, I think any musician that learns from the library of Black American music is going to be drawn towards improvisation in general. I mean, it's all birthed out of jazz. Improv is the cornerstone of jazz music. And so I grew up playing a lot of jazz and soul and funk music, and you need to be able to improvise to play that stuff. So even if you learn your core parts to a tune, a point is going to come that you need to express yourself for a solo, or someone's going to sing something very pointedly to you, or a saxophone is going to play something to you, and you need to be able to respond just like a conversation.

Sanni 

Is that the human part you're talking about? Because you started out and said that creatives don't have a space to create and express themselves, and it be received in a human way. That human improv, the "Hey, they're playing this, I should do this." Is that the human part you're talking about?

Skye 

The audience comes in a little bit, comes with that humanness. It's like making sure that there's a space where people have the right mind to listen in to it. You'll go to a bar and listen to music, and that's a much different experience listening to music than in a huge concert hall, or even a stadium. And so the phrase that we've coined and started using is a traveling house show, so hopefully you feel like you're in the living room. And that comes in a little bit more when we get to customize the space.

Sanni

I like that, because I feel like everybody, even if you can't sing, y'all done sang in y'all living room. I like that; that's very relatable. Everybody has sang in their living room or kitchen at some point. Even if you can't sing when you're a kid, you just sing the commercials, it's just that home feel. Why was that important to have the home feel with it?

Skye 

Well, like Leo said, it really was birthed from his basement. So we really just kind of like drew on what naturally came from that space.

Sanni

So you have a session, a jam session, called "Bible Study?" Okay, so what's this about? Because I feel like some people hear Bible study and they run away.

Marvelous 

We're not studying scripture in the jazz club, that's not what's going on. So Bible study generally takes place on Wednesday evenings at churches. That came to my attention from a friend who used to be in Bible study. And we like that title because we're honing our craft in the middle of the week, because jam sessions are so often about improving yourself, and about intergenerational improvisation, where you get folks that are in different points in their career, or are multi genre, like some of them are jazz musicians, some of them are not. And so you get them in the same place, it's like a training ground. In the same way that Bible study on Wednesdays at the church is like a training ground for your spirituality.

Sanni

Iron sharpening iron, but in a musical sense.

Marvelous 

Yeah, and then on the weekend, the weekend for us is generally Friday or Saturday night, and for the church going folks it's Sunday morning. But on the weekend, that's when you get to have your — you get to melt. That's the catharsis. So middle of the week, sharpening it up, weekend, expression.

Sanni

Wow. Because it's not Bible study, do you feel like it kind of throws people off at all? I feel like it would grab my attention.

Skye 

I think the throw off is part of the fun.

Sanni

Okay, all right, so a little artistic — some sass in that. I like that, a little danger there. I get that. So I got more questions about where you are going with this improv house show. It's interesting, because I'm from Chicago, when I hear house. I think of house music. So a different type of house for those who grew up around hearing that.

Skye 

House as a home.

Sanni

As a home. Luther Vandross, this house is not a home — (laughs). In studio, Carbon Sound Music for Life, right here we have Marvelous and Skye from The Cherry Pit. And they are not only a band, but they're also a creative organization that provides spaces for human expression to be received as well as expressed. And so I have questions about where y'all taking this show, because you're supposed to take the show on the road (laughs), I wanna know where y'all going with this. So we'll be right back with The Cherry Pit on The Message Carbon Sound Music for Life.

It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. We have a in studio interview. I love when the Minnesota music scene comes in, because then you guys get to understand why I be geeking out. So today we have The Cherry Pit with Marvelous and Skye, and so far, we have gotten to how The Cherry Pit started. You guys started out with jam sessions in your home in Wisconsin, and then that has now elevated, evolved into a traveling house show. My question, so, for Bible study, is that a part of the traveling house show, or was that just something that started at the beginning? Has that elevated and grown with your jam sessions, that's a part of the house show?

Marvelous 

In spirit, for sure. I mean, what we're referencing with the traveling house show is that when we throw larger events, we decorate those spaces with carpets, couches, blankets, lamps. So you'll go to somewhere like Icehouse or Green Room or just some unmarked location, and you'll show up and you'll see a living room set essentially, and so the band will be up on stage. But our hope through designing the space in that way, on the stage and off the stage, is that you feel like you're in the living room of the artists, and it creates a sense of intimacy.

Sanni

Yeah, that's kind of cool. It made me think of — I might be telling my age here. It made me think of a show called Big Comfy Couch. For those who know, this is the vibe that I'm getting from this show. What are some of your earliest experiences with music that led to these jam sessions?

Skye 

I mean, I think Leo could probably speak to that. I mostly am a part of The Cherry Pit through a visual art, art direction, set design, organizational aspect. I'd came to a couple of those first basement shows, and aside from Leo, I didn't really know anybody, but the ability for you to sit down and feel like you're just cozy, and be able to ignore the other shit and focus on the music, is I think why I was like, "Oh, this is something special."

Sanni

That's one of my favorite things about going out, because I'm the always the entertainer, so when I go out, I like to just be able to sit and not worry about that. That's a very important part of the audience experience. So okay, you bring the visual elements to it, you're giving us The Big Comfy Couch (laughs). And then musically, where did you start out before the jam sessions started?

Marvelous 

Well, I think that there's an underlying desire in any artistic community for folks to gather in a sort of chopping ground, sort of space where you don't need to worry about messing up. And that was the case in Madison, that continues to be the case in Minneapolis, which was a beautiful relief and an inspiration for me. I thought that I was gonna lay Cherry Pit to rest in Madison, these jam sessions. And then when I got to Minneapolis, I'm like, "Let's just throw a house party jam session." And then it was very immediately noticeable that there was a need here in the Twin Cities for jams. And over the last couple years, I've seen a lot of new jam spaces pop up. And I think that just goes to show that it's just as necessary as having regular community conversations, because that's really what it is. When it's improvisational, there's not this intense structure around it. We're not playing classical music, and so there really, truly does need to be both. That's what it takes for a healthy ecosystem. It's a place for you to mess around with your art, and have fun and communicate, and then a space to do that with words.

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Sanni

It's interesting that you say that, because a lot of that creation, it is in private. Like you said at the beginning, you would create things in private, and you're allowing this creative process to be in a public space. And that does I feel like offer an experience for creatives. Because even me, when I'm creating, I want to be somewhere private. Missy Elliot, I heard she doesn't let anybody in on her creative process. So I know for some people, that's what they require, but for other people, like you said, I just love that safe vibe of "It's okay. That's a part of the process." And it's inspiring to other artists or people who internally are like "I really want to make music, but I'm scared to mess up." So it's cool to see that you're seeing the feedback as you're starting to see more — do you feel intimidated by that in any way? Or does that warm your heart that you're seeing more jam sessions?

Marvelous 

I think it's all part of the same mission. If I saw other bands that were playing rip offs of my original songs, I would feel intimidated and frustrated. I mean, I don't have a copyright on musical conversation. Whenever I see a different space, I'm like "Okay, we're all on the same team." I've talked to some of those organizing folks, and I've tried to give them my two cents about what can make a space like that successful, but I'm by no means in charge, or really facilitating.

Skye 

There really just needs to be more spaces for artists in general. There can't be there can't be enough places, we don't want to compete for that.

Sanni

It's such an abundant mindset, and you can tell how that's pouring over into these jam sessions. It's an abundance mindset that you're like, "As long as we're getting the mission done." What is the next thing that you want to accomplish — I guess with your band too, but also with the organization, the back piece of that. What are you trying to accomplish? What's on the calendar?

Skye 

We've got a crowded horizon.

Marvelous 

There are more, but I'm seeing a main trifecta popping into my brain, I'm seeing these jams are the beating heart of what we have to offer in the Twin Cities. And so we're at the Berlin almost every Wednesday, hosting our jam sessions and providing space there. And beyond that, we're gonna have bigger shows coming up every couple months, these are in addition to the Berlin. These are going to be in some larger venues.

Skye 

So this fall, late fall, maybe early winter, we're gonna do a show called “Unreleased.” And the main premise is you'll show up, and you're not allowed to record on your phone. You're not allowed to take pictures. We'll have no audio recording. We'll have no photographers. You just gotta be there in person all night. We'll have some hired painters and artists to capture it through other mediums, so you can still take something away. Leo has been cooking up a list of people to hopefully take part, musicians to take part in it, and they'll play, hopefully, an array of unreleased music for us. Knowing that it won't leave the room.

Sanni 

I like that. When you said you provide a space — wow. No, because I have unreleased music, and I want people to listen.

Skye 

But you don't want it out there before you're ready.

Sanni 

Yeah! That's slick. What inspired that? Is it just a part of this mission?

Skye 

I think it's a part of the overall mission of creating in person events that are valuable. And recently, political events have made me so much more cognizant of the need for in person community. And like digital spaces are getting crowded, and so I'm like, "Let's create a space where we force ourselves to all really just be there for it."

Sanni

And just be human. Anything that allows for the messiness — not like the intentional toxic messiness, but just in our natural state. I love that. There's something very healing about hearing about that. So no dates or anything on it?

Skye 

No date yet. We're scouting out locations right now. We're getting some of those marketing materials slowly in place.

Sanni

Are you talking to any artists right now? You can't say?

Marvelous 

No, I don't wanna say (all laugh).

Sanni

Okay, I get it. It's unreleased.

Marvelous 

And then the third thing, I think we just finished it yesterday, which is a concert film called “Intimate Inquiry,” which is a show that we did in late 2023. It's multi-cam, and there's skits in between the songs. It's really nice. And so we're gonna drop that and show it in a theater in late July.

Sanni

Okay, so if I am super excited listening to this, and I want to know, how do I keep up with all of these different things that you're doing? So how do we keep up with you? How do we keep up with all of this information?

Skye 

We have an Instagram which we'll keep posting there forever, but slowly phasing out because that algorithm does not show our followers what we post. So we have a free Patreon where it's just like a newsletter kind of feed, and that's probably the best place to check us out.

Sanni

Absolutely. All of this involves improv, it's terrible that I went backwards (laughs). But before we leave, why is improv so important to all of this?

Marvelous 

Well, I was once told that improvisation is just composition sped up and composition is improvisation slowed down. So, composition meaning you have — it's like writing a book, or you have a score, and you're writing out each individual note very deliberately, very slowly. You try it, you go back and you edit, and it's a long process. And improvisation is really not this mysterious thing that folks make it out to be. It really is just an expression of all the things that you've collected throughout your life. So if I've learned 100 songs, then when I go to improvise something, with no plan, it's very likely that I'll be representing fragments of maybe 25 of those songs. Or just maybe a melody that you heard a woman sing when you were walking down the street, or one of those commercials you were talking about, or like the theme for a TV show. We're sponges, and we have our immediate memory, but we also have our deeper and subconscious memories. And so improvisation allows for us to draw from all of our life experiences and all of our musical experiences in the immediate. And so the reason that I'm trying to promote just the overall mission of improvisation and improvisers is because I feel like there's too much emphasis on composition in general.

Sanni

Especially with social media. Everything's crafted and cultivated. So you want to be right at that moment when the human is just existing and just flowing. By the way, I love improv (laughs). But I know improv in the world of acting, I guess I freestyle every day off the dome. I know that's called improv, but for some reason it doesn't feel like improv. So I love the art of improv. You described that so beautifully. I'm so glad that we have that in an interview. Leo, thank you so much for joining us.

Marvelous 

Certainly, yes.

Sanni

Skye, thank you so much for joining us.

Skye 

Thank you so much.

Sanni

The Cherry Pit, everybody. Make sure you go check them out. And hey, I want to know about that unreleased when we get off the mic (laughs). Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you.

Marvelous 

Certainly. Thank you, Sanni.

Carbon Sound recently caught up with Minnesota’s own Dizzy Fae and talked about her journey of self-love and discovery over the last few years, her upcoming debut album, and a whole lot more.

Dizzy will be performing at Walker Art Center’s ‘After Hours: Summer Party’ on Friday, July 25.

John

Hello, this is John from Carbon Sound. I have a familiar face to some in Minnesota in with me today, I have Dizzy Fae. Thank you so much for being here today.

Dizzy Fae

Thank you so much for having me, my home!

John

Absolutely! Welcome. How does it feel to be back in downtown St. Paul and then just the Twin Cities overall?

Dizzy Fae

Yeah, it's pretty surreal. Like, looking out the window right now, I can probably see my high school, SPCPA. It's pretty surreal. It's nice to come back and always just be full of love when I'm here.

John

How often are you back nowadays?

Dizzy Fae

Well, I have family, so I try to come back a few times a year if I can. But last year I was super broke, so I didn't see no one for like, maybe two years max. But yeah, I like to make it here as much as I can, see my sisters, my grandma.

John

So family is definitely a part of the essentials when coming back here. Is there anything else you feel like you have to do once you're back here? Saw a run at Bde.

Dizzy Fae

Oh, yes! Bde Maka Ska! I used to run there like, every day 2020, I was running every morning. I had this running buddy, and we would just go at it, like, 8am and it was kind of cute to run around it! And then I saw Pimento is right there, and I'm like, "how did you get there??" So it's cool to see stuff like that happen, where it's just different things switch up around the city, things get added, things move. But it's such a beautiful run. I suggest everyone, if they're a runner or just a walker, check it out.

John

Beautiful area, Uptown Minneapolis. Don't miss out.

Dizzy Fae

I agree. Where should I take my manager for some food?

John

I was actually gonna ask you that — because you mentioned Pimento, and I wasn't sure if there's essentials you have to come back and eat once you're here. I'll put the question on you (laughs).

Dizzy Fae

That is a good question. I am so bad with finding places. It's just not my thing. I'm not a cook, I hope I have a chef. But I kind of want to try some really nice places out, let me know if you have any suggestions, because I'm completely sober, and something that's been really cool about that is I get high off food now.

John

Absolutely, oh my gosh!

Dizzy Fae

Like foodgasms are a real thing. It's actually kind of insane. It's usually high-quality food, but I'm excited to dive into that more. And it's cool to maybe do that in my city, but it would be nice to go to a place where — because I'm of age now, where people that I know are probably working at restaurants. I might catch somebody, you know, like —

John

Is that a good thing?

Dizzy Fae

It's so fire. Last time I came here was for a Klituation show, and I went to this place downtown St. Paul, and the people there knew me, and I got free dinner two times in a row, and I was like, "This my city!!"

John

There's gotta be some perks to coming back (laughs).

Dizzy Fae

No for real! I'm like, this is super cool. But it's really nice to catch up with people around the city. So I always hope I see people that I know, or anyone that — this is like the one place I will sit and have a conversation with somebody. I don't know if that answered the question. I'm also open to new things. There's been so many things that have came about since 2020. I can see that things aren't as boarded up anymore, which is good to see.

John

Is there anything you view differently from that time and then now? You mentioned things not being boarded up as much, but is there anything you view differently about Minnesota? Is there any perspective change?

Dizzy Fae

I would say the city just feels a little more intentional, which is really nice. Because it's always kind of felt like that, it's very calm here, very chill, like, "What's up, dude?" But I just feel like after 2020 there's been such a shift — I feel like internally in people, and not just in the city, but just internally, and then also in the city, I guess. And so coming back here, it just feels — the energy just feels more intentional here. And there's just, again, there's so many new places. So I feel like it's blossoming in a really cool way. It's just so special to me. I think what changes and constantly evolves is how special Minnesota is to me. Every time I come back, I'm like, "My city!"

John

There's always gonna be that charm or that twinkle.

Dizzy Fae

Yeah, I would say that's the biggest thing that I noticed change in me, but in the city itself, it's constantly changing and evolving. I'm just trying to keep up. I got some homies here, I got good people here, so they keep me updated.

John

100%, and I feel like some frequent and consistent collaborators as well, whether it's producer Psymun, Alec Ness, kind of all those in the mix. I could talk all day about Minnesota stuff, and we will get back to it at one point, because I do have some more questions, but I do want to talk about your music overall, and the new stuff that's been coming out, the new songs. And what I have at the top of this paper is universe builder, because I just feel like there's a lot that comes within your creative style, this realm that you're able to build for you and your fans, which is really cool, and so I kind of want to dissect that a little bit, and we can start with "My Baby Loves Me." I'm curious about the ideation of that song, the cover art, you holding your mini me, how does that all come about for you?

Dizzy Fae

I love that. I love dissecting this world. I really have for a long time built a world, and I kind of want to take you through the journey of it real quick. It's pretty fun to talk about, but it kind of helps with all the projects I've put and where it's going. And I'll probably say this a few times, because I think it helps anybody at any time, get on the bandwagon, but understand me a little bit more. I'm a very visual thinker, and so I think of like, okay, boom — Alice in Wonderland. I'm in a field, it's beautiful, there's flowers everywhere. And then I'm reading my book, my cat is probably doing his thing, climbing up the tree. I'm like, "Get out of the tree!" I'm very in my element. And that is Free Form, my first mixtape. That is just me, free flowing, free forming, just kind of being who I am, what I am, in this space. And then it starts to get a little cold, and I'm like, "Oh, I should probably bundle up, figure out my next move. I can't lay here forever." And so on that journey of just being like, "Alright, my consciousness is starting to need a plan. Something is happening." That's my next mixtape, NO GMO. So I'm kind of going, I see this river. I like to say chocolate, because I like to add a little pizzazz. And so I'm like, "Let me get on this river." I get on a boat that's going down the river, and there's a map in it. And I'm like, "Oh! Okay." I hold the map up, that's my EP Antenna. So now I'm like, "Okay, I have directions, an antenna. I have something calling to me to do what I'm supposed to do. I felt it earlier from NO GMO, and I was building from Free Form." So I'm like, moving the map around, upside down, looking at it. I'm like, okay, North West, South —  okay, period. I'm like, "I should probably get off the river, because the map is telling me that." I get off the river, I continue to follow the map. And then the map takes me to this door, and I look down, and the place mat in front of the door says, "Are We There Yet?" And that's my last EP. Because now it's kind of at a point where like, "Okay, well, this is the map takes me, takes me right here, like, are we there yet? I think we might be!" So I look inside the keyhole. Hence, "My Baby Loves Me" at the beginning, when I started doing content, you saw a keyhole, then it zoomed in, and I look in, I'm like, "Okay! I see some in there." I open up the door, and that is going to be my next project. So that's gonna be my debut album.

John

Wow. They need you in writers’ rooms for shows. You just took me on that journey, and that's so crazy, because how much of that is planned out? Or did it kind of show itself over time? And you mentioned this map. How do you know to trust the map? What is that map?

Dizzy Fae

It started forming around Antenna, when I thought about the map idea. Because if you think about the journey itself, I didn't really fully develop that I was on a mission until Antenna. Free Form, I was just kind of doing my thing. That's when I was just getting in the studio. My first session ever was — I was like playing around with covers, but my first session ever was in a room with Psymun, Corbin, and Sen 09. And Psymun and Sen 09, I don't know if he still goes by Sen 09, great producer, but they produced Johnny Bravo. That wasn't where I did that then, I was so — imagine being in that room. I was like, "Where do I fit?"

John 

Where did you fit?

Dizzy Fae

We just kind of vibed out, just hung out. And we all just kind of stayed friends to this day. So it's really cool, like Psymun and Corbin, but yeah, I just was free forming. I was just going into the studio doing my thing. Minnesota is a very big band place, so it's like being a solo artist — every solo artist that I know is really their own and in their own pocket. So you really have to find your own pocket while you're here. And so just to go back on your question on "My Baby Loves Me," I've constantly been on this journey of discovery and self-love and wanting to make my platform and who I am a outreach to anybody else that's in need of that, or experiencing that, and not feeling alone in a big world where it's like you're having a solo experience in connection to others.

John

Something I'm curious about that seemed like it kept coming up, and I'm curious how you can fit this into the equation, because I know it's important, is the idea of breaking foundation and building it back up.

Dizzy Fae

I realized I was breaking foundation and building it up right after my mom passed. I think anyone that has grieved a very close loss, especially with a parent, it's like there's something that does naturally break down. For me, it was like this specific understanding and acceptance that had to take place at the same time. Everything I knew wasn't the same no more. I really did break down my entire foundation to the T. I mean, I've never been so sad in my entire life. That was the saddest thing I've ever gone through. But it really put me in a place where it's like, even if I was depressed before or anything else, it was like nothing has ever been that sad in my entire life. So I was able to identify where that came from, which allowed me to see everything so clearly. So I really broke down my foundations and my values, and I really, at one point, maybe like a month after, I was like, "Okay, I just need to make sure I'm drinking water, I'm eating healthy food, and I'm there for my sisters." And honestly, that was the only thing that mattered for me. Thank God that I'm in alignment, I think, to what I'm supposed to be doing, and spiritually guided. Because I was making music prior to that, there were like, bullets in the chamber, so I didn't feel like I needed to catch up, or "Oh, I need to have music ready." I had some stuff. I was like, "Okay, now I can just grieve probably the hardest part." But grieving’s so — it's not linear. It's something that's very — happens randomly, but that was probably the hardest time of my grieving point, which had me break down everything, like, "What do I need to do to survive?" And then "What's the type of person I want to be?" I don't want this to make me a mean person, I don't want to be a big, hard shell. I want to just continue to live in My Divine Feminine.

John 

When did the art and creativity feel like it started to creep back in and form?

Dizzy Fae

I would say it started to come back towards April 2022, or was it 2021? It was whenever I met Lido, the producer, that's when I feel like my creativity kind of came back. I always tell him this, but he's such an angel in my life. He's the first producer I started working with right after my mom passed, and he randomly reached out to me, if you know Lido, he's just kind of that guy. So for him to randomly reach out to me, it was just like — and I didn't have anything really going on. And we started working, and I was like, "Wow, this is nuts.” Our chemistry is just so beautiful. And so I think that's where it kind of came back. And then I made, Are We There Yet? He produced a lot of those songs, in addition to other producers I love working with, and that project has to do with the seven stages of grief. But I needed to put that out. I was like, "I need to put that out." I just have such an interesting outlook on grieving that I want to share with the world.

John 

That through line of love, throughout your whole music and just your creative process, I can see that there and then with Are We There Yet? throwing in this idea of grief, I was just kind of curious to ask you, were there intersections between grieving romantic relationships and the loss of your mom? Because at certain times, it's interesting with heartbreak songs, because you can almost interpret it in different ways. And I wasn't sure if one was more centered around that loss, or was it more around romantic relationships?

Dizzy Fae

Yeah, relationships have been a real thing in my life that I've just had to navigate, even just relationship with myself. I think to coexist is like — you not only are coexisting with people, you're coexisting with yourself, you're coexisting with your mind. I can't remember the name of the book right now, but he talks about how your mind is your inner roommate, like we're constantly coexisting. I grew up in a pretty toxic household, so I feel like me and my mom started having a great relationship towards her last days here, like her last few months — so grateful for that, oh my God. I thank God all the time for that. But I would say 2021, was a crazy year for me with relationships. I had my first love heartbreak, like I was in love with this person for the first time, and I ended up being like, "I gotta live my dream out. I gotta move to LA. I gotta do it." That was just a natural separation. And then around the summer, I was nannying for this lady, and the guy she was with actually pulled out a shotgun on me. So relationship with trust, that was a whole thing. I had to leave same day, I was like, "This is nuts." And then that year, the following few months my mom passed — I also wanted to, like, kms a few months prior to my mom passing, and I feel like her passing was a moment of the universe being like "Girl, not yet." Dark humor, but yeah. So then I had some friendships that kind of abruptly ended right after my mom passed, just a little unfortunate. But relationships, I feel like, had a lot to do with grieving, and I mean, that project in general. I have this song called "Talk About It," where I was just like, I think after my mom passed, I just was like, this stuff is so night and day, like we really are born to die and anyone can pass at any moment, we should talk about it. We're awake now, let's talk about it. And I just had so many epiphanies and realizations after my mom passed that I was like, I don't want to look back and be like — I mean, I just saw who was around her deathbed, and I was like, "I gotta figure this out." Whatever it is, I gotta be love. Because if I'm not love, I don't know, I just need to figure out how to be love.

John

And just you telling me that story, I feel like I can see your eye looking through that keyhole and giving yourself that love and whoever else might need it. That's really powerful, and just one more note on your mom. I'm just curious, if you're willing to share, day in and day out, what's the main thing you keep with you from her?

Dizzy Fae

Well, you know what's crazy is, I want to do a TED talk one day on grief, but I talk to her every day. She's been such a big point of my guidance, I actually feel like she's with me more now than she's ever been. And that process has been really beautiful for me. And I have some crazy stories, I have crazy stories where she really does talk to me and she's really here, she's really guiding me, protecting me. She's with me every day, I literally talk to her every day.

John

Wow. So you have her in that sense, and then you have, what I just love, I'm very nostalgic person, so you have the memories. You have the Ne-Yo and Trey Songz concert —

Dizzy Fae

What?? (Both laugh) That was so Nardwuar of you, that was so good. Yeah, that was my first concert. She really took us, and then Trey Songz ripped his shirt in three. Gave it to left, right and middle. I was like, "Okay, got it." Ne-Yo's such a good performer, though. That is so funny. And she gave me my siblings, she gave me my little sister, that's like, my best friend. She left me with a lot of great things for sure. That is so funny.

John

Well, speaking of performances, I know releasing music and coming to this point in your artistic career, you're just really excited to put some excited to put stuff out, excited to perform. What are you excited most about?

Dizzy Fae

I'm just excited to perform again. I haven't performed since the Klituation, and then prior to that, it's been years. And I feel like I'm in such a place right now where this album, I think, is gonna change my entire life. I think it's gonna have people understand me more. I just hope that it gets to the right people, that's all I really care about. And I hope that people can gain experience from it, their own experiences, have their own memories to take with them, and I just hope that it helps people along the journey. Real life things are really nice. It's nice to post, it's nice to make content — I actually have fun making content. Doing what I have to do is fun, love that. I'm so excited to meet fans, and I'm so excited to see Dizzerts. When I was at the Klituation, people were screaming "Body Move." I had to tell my DJ to, like, hold on. And it was like a mixed race of people, you didn't just see — I was speechless. I was like, "How am I speechless and I'm supposed to perform right now?" It was so cool, and I'm just so excited to see what Dizzerts look like, my fan base. I'm just excited to perform, that's where I started. I went on tour with Lizzo when I only had two songs out, so I had to make a whole repertoire of music that's never gonna be out — so whoever saw it, you saw it. But, yeah, performing, that's where I feel really at home.

John 

First and foremost, wanted to say I love that you call Dizzy fans Dizzerts.

Dizzy Fae

It's cute right? They're the sweetest, literally.

John

And that reminds me of another play on words, and just you talking about performances, I'm curious when the next Dizzyland is going to be.

Dizzy Fae

I would like to look at Dizzyland as a part of Dizzy World, like it's a section of the world, and then Dizzy World is a part of Dizzy Universe. So Dizzyland, it will happen again, but it's just in a matter of time. I had a really cool lineup at that time, and I think I just got to perform a little bit more myself, and go on tour, and do all these things, but Dizzyland, it's not even gone or forgotten. I was gonna say "It might be gone, but it's not forgotten." It's just part of the universe. So it'll happen again for sure.

John 

While I have you, I wanted to go back to Minnesota, and I'm just really curious how and when an artist knows when to make certain moves in their career, and just you being here and starting your career here and then moving out to LA, when did that feel like it was going to be a good fit?

Dizzy Fae

I really wish I had some advice for that. I would say, if I could give any advice, in knowing when the right time is the right time, it's never the right time. And that's what makes it the right time. You really have to just leap and pray that there's a net. I didn't know — I told you I was in love! And then the universe said, "Get your booty to LA, cause we got some stuff to do." And LA opened so many doors for me. It wasn't like I moved to LA and everything started happening. That year my mom passed, that year the shotgun was pulled on me, that year my heart was broken from the person I thought I was in love with. You just really got to keep leaping and as time goes on, it will all make sense. And I think that's what's so cool about explaining that process, that journey from NO GMO to now, because that's really how it goes. You really just gotta have faith in whatever you believe in, and keep it pushing. There's really not a right time, though, and that is the right time.

John 

Fair enough. That makes total sense, and knowing that you've kind of had a hand in both of these pots and scenes, I'm just curious if you can see or know of any differences between the two, LA versus Minnesota?

Dizzy Fae

Oh my God, such a big difference. I had a moment where I got homesick because there's just not enough nature in LA. I was like, "Do y'all like green or what??" And it's congested there. Love LA down, the weather is cool, I got some cool friends, some cool things, cool food, all that. But it's a little saturated in LA. There's a lot of people that move there. It's a lot of energy. Minnesota, I plan on buying a house here at some point, you can really breathe here. You can really be like, "Ahh. I think I'll go home." (Both laugh) In LA, you're like "Ahh —

John

"Smog."

Dizzy Fae

Yeah, "Ahh, smog. Ahh Pollution." But LA is cool. I don't think you should move to LA if you're looking for something. I think you move to LA when you already have something. If you move to LA and you looking for something, life is gonna show you all the things that you actually have to look for. And it's gonna be within yourself. But I feel like if you move there, you already have a plan. It's already happening. It would be super beneficial for you.

John

Before we leave, do you have any words of advice to our Carbon Sound listeners out there?

Dizzy Fae

Yeah, I would say to always be stubborn with the vision, but be flexible with the plan.

John

Wonderful.

Dizzy Fae

It's definitely helped me a lot. I've noticed if I just know exactly what I'm doing, it never really works out. But if I know what I'm looking forward to — I've never had a plan that worked out exactly how it's supposed to work out.

John

How did you come to that?

Dizzy Fae

Well, you know what? I saw a quote on Instagram, and I was like, "This eats!" But I started actually applying it to my life, and I noticed that that's actually how my life, and I'm sure probably others, it really works like that. The goal is to sell out stadiums. Do I know how I'm about to get there? I don't know. Are y'all about see me at Xcel? Yeah. Do I know when? No.

John

Right, so the vision is to get there.

Dizzy Fae

The vision is to get there, and how it's gonna get there, I'm really not sure.

John

Does that ever feel unnerving? I'm just a person who likes to be in control as much as possible.

Dizzy Fae

Me too, me too. I'm always like — my manager, he over there, he's trying not say too much (laughs). I'm very like, "I gotta do it. This is how it's gotta be." Then I'm like, "Actually, I'm okay. Everything's okay. Plan just shifted a little bit, but it probably is always better. I saw this photo where it was like, "Your plan" and it had one rose, and it said, "God's Plan" and it had like, hundreds of roses. And I really think that's how it goes. Everything has always turned out better than I've expected. And sometimes it is pretty crazy to be like, "Oh, my goal is to sell out arenas and stadiums." But I don't know, is it that crazy? We'll have to use this clip for when it happens.

John

We'll keep it for sure. We'll look archive it and we'll trust that vision.

Dizzy Fae

And I told myself I was gonna stop smoking till I'm 45, so it needs to happen before I'm 45.

John

How are we feeling about that?

Dizzy Fae

You know, I think it's doable. I think it can happen, anything can happen. I saw SZA play at a show called "The F***ing Best Show Ever." It was when Z came out, it was very EP time. And to see where she is now, I'm like, "Oh." There's just certain artists I've seen early on and then just seeing it blossom, it can really happen. I mean, it's really up to the people. That part ain't even up to me. I'm like, "If they don't like me, I'm not gonna sell out loud stadiums and arenas." But if they digging it, and I can help others with it, I'm sure that it'll be plentiful of people and flowers in the audience. It's gonna be really crazy that we had this moment, if that really — I mean, WHEN it really happens.

John

When that happens, that is gonna be really exciting. When your upcoming album comes out that's gonna be very exciting. Any more details you can offer there?

Dizzy Fae

What's happening right now is a story is unfolding, and this is a really cool time in my career. This project, it being my debut album, is really embodying a lot of parts of me. I want to say the title, but I can't, I can't right now, I want to so bad! But it's really good, it's really beautiful. I have a lot of parts on the project, maybe like two parts, but I have a few songs where, a verse has been completely freestyled — I want to say the name, but I can't! It's so good, though. I was really guided with this project, and everything feels in place. I have a great team, I have great people around me, the music is great. I just want people to know that they're early with me. Even though I've been doing this stuff for a second, we're so early.

John

Happy and honored to be a part of this early journey, and so excited to see where things go from here.

Dizzy Fae

Yes! Thank you so much, I appreciate it.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg stopped by to talk to Carbon Sound’s host Sanni about their work as a Jerome Hill Artist Fellow, applying for grants as an artist, their upcoming project Manic Pixie Dream Boi, and more.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Sanni Brown 

It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. Okay, I'm gonna just flat out say it. I used to stalk our next guest (laughs). I used to stalk them at the beginning of my radio career because I used to see locally, people would speak on them all the time. And so number one, if I sound like I'm fanned out, don't be judging me Carbon Sound audience. In studio today, we have a composer, a multi-instrumentalist, photographer, organizer and current Jerome Foundation Artist Hill Fellowship grant awardee, among other awards. Taylor Ngiri Seaberg, welcome to Carbon Sound. Welcome to The Message, wow.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

Thank you for having me, I appreciate it.

Sanni Brown 

Wow. First of all, I believe I have discovered a healthy kind of stalking, okay (laughs). Several of the artists that I used to be like, "Wow —" and you guys end up in the studio. You're one of them. I remember seeing you earlier in my radio career, you were doing a lot of rock — I just gotta get the fan girl stuff out the way. I heard so much about you, I just didn't know, and I think it was a lot of rock stuff. And so I think I, at the time, may have been a little scared to go there, because I was in radio brain and rock stations wasn't hiring me at the time. But you would show up on my feed, I would see you being reported on. And so first of all, I know who you is, thank you for taking the time and coming to The Message. It is so dope you are here, thank you.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

Thank you for having me. That really warms my heart, because even you just saying being Black, you couldn't — rock radio stations, it was harder to get access. I feel like that was my whole beginning, starting playing in a punk rock band with all Black people.

Sanni Brown 

Can you tell us, just for new people — can you give your pitch? Because it's a lot.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

My name is Taylor Ngiri Seaberg, I'm a gender nonbinary, trans, Kenyan American multi-instrumentalist. I play bass guitar, electric guitar, piano, and then I played flute for eight years in concert band. I am a concert band geek nerd. Before it was cool to be a musician, I was being a little nerd in the corner playing. And I also played for the church, which I feel like is a lot of Black people's background to music is playing in the church. So I played in the church for like 12 years, something like that. And so yeah, music is like my main love. But then I also love photography, and I did a lot of protest photography during the tragedy that was the murder of George Floyd in 2020. And I lived on 35th and Chicago, so I lived right across from Pillsbury House Theatre. So for me, that was my literal backyard and neighborhood. So I did a lot of curating and community organizing with Powderhorn Porch Fest and Pillsbury House Theatre. Community organizing has also been very important to me, because I believe that art should be used as a medium for political change. Especially because I'm in love with like Rage Against the Machine and all these rock bands that were always like, "Testify" and "I won't do what you tell me." Just like Public Enemy, down with the man — that really shaped my art from a young age.

Sanni Brown 

So what attracted you to that? Because I've always liked rock. I've always, I've always been I loved when Janet would drop some — I love when artists take that rock. I love that. I've always loved rock. When did you as a Black person — I was gonna say, when did you feel comfortable like outwardly expressing that? Because I feel like, if you didn't outwardly express like R&B, soul like that, and it was rock — I feel like rock was secret. My mama liked rock, so it was in the house, but as soon as I went outside, among other people — when did you really be like, "I like this. I'm digging this." When did that first hit, your love for rock?

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

So my mom actually really loved rock music, even though she was a Christian, very church woman, for sure. My mom was still into like, System of a Down, and we would listen to "Chop suey!" and my mom would actually love these lyrics. And then I got my mom into "Flyleaf," because I told her Flyleaf was a Christian metal band (laughs). And my mom's like, feeling the spirit within her (laughs).

Sanni Brown 

Nah, that's dope. Y'all sharing music, that's beautiful.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

But it was actually my older brother — my older brother, Donovan. I come from a musically talented family, so my mom went to Juilliard for piano, she's also a flutist, and she also is a mezzo-soprano opera singer. So when she had kids, she knew these kids are going to do music. And I think because of that, music was deeply embedded in every area of my life from a young age. And I also got introduced to a whole kaleidoscope of music, because I lived in a family where everybody was doing music and had different tastes. I remember we lived in England when I was in middle school, and I think I was in seventh grade, so I was around like, 12 or 13, and my brother played in a punk rock band called Poser at the time. And they actually got to play at Abbey Road Studio, that's the studio where the Beatles — that's the iconic UK studio. And he was only 15, 16 years old, and so I looked up to him. He played Triple Rock Social Club before, you know, RIP Triple Rock Social Club closed down, which was a huge punk epicenter in Minneapolis. When I saw him play, I was obsessed. And my brother was a shredder, he would be playing Killswitch Engage, Pierce the Veil, and all these heavy metal bands that I ended up getting into because of him. I would listen to him practice, and he would post videos of him doing metal music, and so it kind of made sense that I would follow right after my brother.

Sanni Brown 

That's so beautiful. So he obviously goes to the shows.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

Yeah, we used to play in a band called People Will Dance together. The very first band I was ever in was People Will Dance with him.

Sanni Brown 

How was he when you got into the band?

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

He always had high expectations. I'd be like, how do you do this? And he'd be like, "Oh, you just do it like this." And I'd be like, "What??" Like his fingers would move so fast. That's why it's like some musicians just cannot teach. They're amazing people, and my brother was one of them (laughs). We actually used to instrument swap. So I would play the guitar and sing, and he would play the bass, or I would play the bass and sing and he would play the guitar. So because we both grew up playing multiple instruments, we had this versatility. And playing with somebody for over 20 years of your life — well, I guess at that point it was like over 15, 16 years of my life, more accurately. Playing with him, it was so intuitive, and also he was able to tell me stylistically, "Oh, we should do it like this or like that" from both lenses of being a bass player and a guitar player. We were in a trio with my drummer, Jay Weiler, at the time, and I've been loving trios ever since. I think trios — guitar, bass, and drums is such a nice trio. At least for me, because it's like the melody, the melodicness of the guitar, which you could also swap out for a keys player, and then the bass and the drums. But lately, I've been really into just drum and bass, and singing and rapping while playing the bass. That's what I've been into now, is getting the melodicness of the bass, because there's so much melody behind bass lines. People just think it's root notes, but no, there's a whole spectrum of how to play the bass, funk Bass, slap bass.

Sanni Brown 

I have so many questions about bass (laughs), because I know, just from listening as a consumer, the party is in the bass, for me. Even if you're at a place and they're doing sound check, and they do something with the music and they take the bass out, that's where the party is, man.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

It's the meat.

Sanni Brown 

It's the meat, man. Unless we're talking Mediterranean (both laugh), that's supposed to be the flavor, it's food and music here on The Message.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

True, it's no seasoning.

Sanni Brown 

Right (laughs). But I have so many questions about bass. How are you swapping? So what instrument is your brother playing?

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

So he's either playing the guitar, or he's playing the bass. And the thing is, I write sheet music and I write chord charts — you can actually play a chord on the guitar, on a six string, you can play the same type of chord on the bass, as a triad, for instance, like just the root note, the third, and the fifth or the seventh, or the ninth.

Sanni Brown 

Wait! You're going too deep (laughs).

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

This is music theory (laughs). If you think of a chord, right? Like a C major chord, you can add all the spicy elements, like a sharp ninth or a suspended or whatever. But the root, the key root of a triad, would be that C chord would be the root.

Sanni Brown 

For outside music people, that's homebase.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

So knowing how to get back to the root, that's the main beginning, opening part. And so if you think about it like that, even if I'm doing a super complicated chord on the guitar, I can always transpose it to the root and to the third and to the fifth. So for like a C major, it would be C, it would be E, it would be G. So in those three notes, I can just rock those. Or if I know the scale, I can rock any of those notes and the notes in the C scale.

Sanni Brown 

Do you know anything about piano?

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

Yeah, piano is what I started off on.

Sanni Brown 

Okay, so then this makes sense, what you're talking about. For all the musicians, it's what gives us harmonies, it's what gives us melodies. I love that.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

But yeah, I'm a music nerd to the core. I love analyzing the structure of music, and I think that's why I love composing. I love composing different parts for different people. I've seriously been thinking about being a ghost writer, because I make a lot of material, but I don't always want to perform it or sing over it or rap over it, and that's why I've gotten into making beats. So I got into making beats, like two and a half years ago, started using Ableton, and now I make music with a lot of people who are featured on my upcoming album.

Sanni Brown 

You just said something delicious. You just said something about how you want to help people.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

Yeah, I want to help produce people.

Sanni Brown 

This is my question. What you were just talking about, on the chord progression. Are you adding that into the stuff that you're making?

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

Yeah, I record all the instrumentation myself. So I do all the bass guitar, all the electric guitar. I use Guitar Rig, which is a very expensive plug in, but it's good because it models amp sounds without you needing to buy an amp or mic and amp. So basically it's all digital plug ins that are like mirroring mics, also guitar effects, like delay, like distortion. So I can program all of this, and a lot of that is what I have recorded on songs I put out on Spotify.

Sanni Brown 

So for everyone's ears outside of this, if you go, "Man, everything sound the same." This is the surgical stuff that needs to happen so that all the beats don't sound the same. This is The Message, Carbon Sound music for life. I am in with Taylor Ngiri Seaberg, and we are getting down to the meat and sauce and juice of music making, instrumentation and musicianship. I have not even got to your accolades, to your awards. But we will be back and we're going to finish this discussion about beat making, because I do think that's a very important conversation right now. So again, it's The Message, Carbon Sound music for life. Don't go no place, especially if you make beats.

Sanni Brown 

It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. We straight up talking music theory with Taylor Ngiri Seaberg, composer, multi-instrumentalist, photographer, organizer and current Jerome Foundation Artist Hill Fellowship Grant awardee, and I feel like you've won other awards. You are barred up when it comes to the awards. Taylor told me offline that Taylor had absolutely no intention of working in music. I love stories like that, because something in the wind called you, and you just happened to listen — it was your brother.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

Yeah, it was definitely my brother and my mom. I wish I could tell you, we used to play in family talent shows, Black family talent shows. Me and my brother would back up my mom, and that's actually how I got into playing, was backing up my mom on the guitar and doing backup vocals for her. So the reason why I can pick out harmonies vocally really well is because I used to play with my mom and I used to match her voice.

Sanni Brown 

And now you are talking about dissecting rhythm. I take a class, it's called Rhythm and Style, and it's in rap school, it's Pendulum Inc., and that's why what you were talking about was so interesting. For those who just pulled up, Taylor has discussed what brought them into rock, what brought them into their musical career that they offline said they had absolutely no intention of pursuing. You was trying to do that business thing (laughs).

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

I mean, it's important to know music business as an artist, too. I feel like I'm glad that I came from that background before, and I knew how to promote myself, how to make EPKs.

Sanni Brown 

It's really important what you're saying. Because sometimes I see artists and then I just don't see them no more, and so to see you in here, I'm like, "Okay, you did something that worked."

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

Yeah, I mean, definitely. When we touch on the grant stuff, I'm more than excited to talk about my introduction to that.

Sanni Brown 

We can touch on the grant, nothing but time and opportunity right here, baby! You have a stellar music career. It's insane. Let us know!

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

That's comforting to hear, because —

Sanni Brown 

Oh! I have a heavy and spicy question. So the name of your next project is Manic Pixie Dream Boi. You are nonbinary. So, okay, you like touching fire.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

Oh yeah, and it's Boi, like b-o-i, so it's the queer way of saying boy.

Sanni Brown 

And I love that you're honest, you talk about Black topics, and in the Black community, we say "boy." So my question is, what is the vibe behind that? For me, it feels dangerous.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

So for me, it's a couple of things. The first one is, the reason why I got the grant, the Jerome Foundation Hill Artist Grant, is because I talked about what it was like to have creativity, but be diagnosed with bipolar disorder. Because I have type 1 bipolar. I knew from a young age, but my mom kind of didn't really — obviously being somebody who's part Kenyan, somebody who's part African American, it was very, very hard for her to really grapple with mental illnesses. She didn't believe that — this was back when therapy was not normalized, culturally.

Sanni Brown 

I am a child who was in foster care because my mother had a mental breakdown, because the community doesn't see that as — so I'm a direct effect of how we handle it in our community.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

I'm really heartbroken to hear about that.

Sanni Brown 

I'm here baby, I'm here.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

I feel like I'm glad to be having this open, vulnerable conversation, because I did end up being incarcerated last year because I had a manic episode, and instead of being hospitalized, I was put in jail. And so I actually wrote a book called God's Motel. I actually met an amazing woman of color, a defense attorney, the only woman of color defense attorney in all of Anoka County, her name's Melissa. She runs a free writing program in the Anoka and Hennepin County Jail systems. So she's actually who encouraged me to write my book. She told me there are three main reasons why people are in jail: poverty, mental illness, and addiction. And Black and brown people fit all those types of categories. So that is why the jails are so full when they should be in hospitals. And most of the people I saw there had schizophrenia, had bipolar like me, and it was untreated and it was undiagnosed. I was very fortunate that I did have a psychiatrist. I did get enrolled in state healthcare and all these things, but it was such an inaccessible process until something like that severe happened to me. I literally had to go through that process to get on state insurance, to get on the right medication, and it was very difficult. So I ended up writing about it. I ended up writing about the jail system. And I still have friends from treatment, when I went to treatment, I still have friends from jail. Part of the grant money I want to put towards trans inmates in jail, because being trans in jail is not recognized — your basic human rights are not respected, so of course, how is your gender identity going to be acknowledged? But the main thing that they funded, because they didn't really know about all that, the main thing they funded, though, was me discussing how bipolar has affected my creativity as an artist. Because for a long time, I didn't want to be medicated because I thought it's gonna ruin my creativity. Then I'm going around being manic, not knowing that all through my 20s, I'm experiencing extreme mania that, on one level, is making me super hyper productive because I'm playing all these shows and I'm really successful, right? So because I was high functioning, people are not thinking there's anything wrong with me or that they need to check in with me, so I struggled a lot simultaneously, even while being "successful" with these grants and with gigging a lot, and that's something I wanted to highlight and talk about with the Jerome grant project. You know, we joke around about Kanye, and we're like, "Kanye is crazy" but saying someone's crazy is such a cop out, because there's so much more behind someone's — now we use the term "crashing out." And I love that term because I've been crashing out my whole life just not knowing that's what it was. And sometimes you gotta crash out, sometimes you need to have a mental breakdown, because we live in America, how can you not go a little crazy by everything that's happening, politically and socially? So even that concept of judging people for having mental breakdowns, I'm like, well, you shouldn't, because if you're not having a mental breakdown, part of me is like, are you processing what's really happening?

Sanni Brown 

It is a little scary when everybody's kind of breaking down, and somebody's just looking calm (laughs).

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

I feel like that's the person I'm most scared about, like they're gonna break down in a worse way 20 years from now.

Sanni Brown 

So you produced 90% of this.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

I did. I recorded all my vocals — so I use Ableton Live 12. That's the audio software that I use. I started using it two and a half years ago. Shout out to Toby Ramaswamy, who came over to my house and helped show me how that works (laughs). I like posted on Instagram, "Someone help me! I'm confused." But then once I started actually — I did the whole YouTube college where I looked on YouTube, and was like, "how am I gonna figure it out?"  And I did, and one day it just clicked. One day I looked at Ableton, and I was like, "Wow." And ever since then, I feel like my engineering brain —

Sanni Brown 

Was unlocked.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

Yeah, and ever since then, I've been making a beat a day just to practice and get comfortable. And now I have really efficient sessions where I have people in for three hours, and I'll show them a bunch of beats, and if something clicks, I'm like, let's — in an hour, try to —

Sanni Brown 

Please don't skip past that part. Oh, my goodness. You just did like an artistic fountain, like it's in the desert. You said you tried something else, and it unlocked this, and now you're doing beats every day. Please don't skip over that part. You gave yourself what you needed. Please don't skip over that part (laughs).

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

I think about things in groups, right? And even when I was first performing, the way that I used to get booked was I had my loop station pedal, and I would break things down in my brain by like, "Okay, when I'm looping, I want to have a drum and a bass — drum rhythm section here, and then —

Sanni

And for outsiders, loop is like the hook?

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

Looping is like looping a sound. So, we've seen videos of like, if you look up Tash Sultana, if you look up Reggie Watts, and Madison McFerrin, I think, too. If you look up all of these artists, you'll see that they use these pedals, this guitar pedal, or bass pedal, or vocal processor that allows you to click a button, and then it will loop a section of a song. So what you have to get good at is, this is manual timing. You can use quantization — quantization is another concept of matching things, AI matching things to the meters. So sync, even if it's off beat, it'll sink it onto the meter, onto the grid. So even back before we had AI AI, that's what you could do, you could quantize. But I was using a effect pedal where you couldn't quantize it. I had to literally count in my head, and then boom, hit the button to stop it and make sure it looped on time. So that's what I used to do. So this is related to how I build beats now, because when I would build the loops, I would think of them as, like, okay, I gotta start with my main melody line. I gotta start with this hook. I gotta play it on the guitar. Then once I've set that loo, now I have to think of the percussion. So maybe I'm beatboxing, maybe I'm playing the bass, and then that's the rhythm section, and then the third piece I want is to be all my vocals so that's how I do the three-part harmony. I always think of things in three-part harmony. Obviously, there can be more than three, but that's how I would do things with the loop pedal. And I started doing that when I was 19, when I was performing like that.

Sanni Brown 

Okay. You were already breaking down beats for your shows.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

Yeah, and actually, I got booked by Medium Zach to play the Last of the Record Buyers Showcase in 2019, the last Soundset that happened. So I played at Soundset for the Last of the Record Buyers Showcase, but this was a beat makers showcase. So I told Zach, like, "I don't make beats! I loop stuff manually on a pedal." And he was like, "I want to have you." And everybody else had Ableton Pushes — all these actual producers, like Just Blaze was there. So I learned how to use Logic in two weeks. Literally, before the set, I learned how to use Logic, and that was what got me into making beats in 2019 was Medium Zach kind of thrusting me into this challenge. And then him being like, "Well, can't you bring your loop station battle?" And I'm like, "It's not the same! It takes time to build beats." Sometimes I might build a beat and it might take 10 minutes, and I had literally like, a seven minute set. So I had enough time only for seven minutes, and I knew I needed to build beats beforehand. So I built two beats that later I ended up playing with my band at shows. I ended up playing these two beats, and that's the thing I'll do a lot, is I'll bring these concepts to the band, and the band will just do their own thing with them. So I'll be like, "Okay, I got the bass, I got the guitar, I got this. I kind of want the drums to sound like this." And then I'll bring it to a band, and the band will do their magic. That's how I got into beats was looping first, using a loop station pedal, then Medium Zach inviting me to be on the Last of the Record Buyers Showcase. And then finally, now I use Ableton Live 12 for the last two and a half years, and now I am very comfortable with audio engineering. I've been an audio engineer, too. I used to run sound at Pimento, and so transferring a lot of that knowledge of audio engineering and dynamic processing and EQing, and I learned how to do that.

Sanni Brown 

To create the vibes, basically. It's a very common conversation about having your own sound. I mean, I feel like music heads appreciate that.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

I've had no genre the whole time I've been performing, I feel like I've never stuck to just one genre.

Sanni Brown 

But I think you may be helping people create their authentic sound, and that might be required. We don't want you to sound like one kind of way. You might be changing the game on a producer tip.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

I want more queer people, and women, to sound engineers. There's so many white men that are sound engineers, and honestly, I had a really negative experience through half of my career, through just having horrible — just treating me like I didn't know what I was doing or talking about. Especially when I started playing with an all-Black band. When I started playing with an all-Black band, I had so many — I would ask for basic things. Like, "Can I get a direct input box? Can I get this? Oh, yeah, I do need two microphones, because I have a piano station and a guitar station." And they'd kind of act like I was asking for a lot. Or I'd be like, "Oh, this mix is kind of loud. Can we turn down to this decibel?" And they'd just look at me — but then as soon as we play a set, then they'd be like, "Oh my God!" Their attitude would shift and change after we performed. So from there, I was like, I want to see more women, I want to see more trans people, I want to see more queer people.

Sanni Brown 

That slows up the creativity. It sounds like it hinders creativity.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

You're always in spite of people. You're always living in spite of people, like, "Oh, I'm gonna prove to them that I know what I'm talking about, that I deserve to be on this stage. At first, when I was younger, that's all I was, but now I'm like —

Sanni Brown 

I shouldn't have to do that all the time (laughs).

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

In fact, I shouldn't have to play like a billion shows a week either, because sometimes that's exhausting. And that's what I love about having $20,000 of grant funding every year, because I can do that. I get to chill, and I get to be like, "Alright, I'm gonna pay my collaborators, and then I'm just gonna be in Mexico City for two months."

Sanni Brown 

I love that you did this, because what is the Jerome Foundation Artist Hill Fellowship grant? And you said what it was for, what project it was for.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

Yeah, Manic Pixie Dream Boi, my beat tape that I'm coming out with. I'm labeling it a beat tape because I want to show not just the musicianship and what I've been playing in a band for the last seven years, I want to also show that I'm a pretty proficient beat maker, like I can make beats in any genre. So I have house beats, you know, that are like Kaytranada and Channel Tres inspired. "Dealer's Choice" my single that came out in April, that's on Spotify, and that one is like a trap metal beat that's more like Rico Nasty, Denzel Curry, so it's more raw, more like, "I'm aggressive." And then there's like softer, more indie, early SZA, if y'all remember experimental SZA, like, "Warm Winds," before pop SZA. I wanted to show that I can make beats for anyone. I can make boom bap beats, I can make — and some of these beats I have guest features from different Minnesota artists. RZ Shahid, for instance, he's featured on my song, "Reason." And then I have Louie, my friend Louie is gonna be featured on the house beat, he helped me co-produce it. And then rø, she is an amazing Black trans woman, we met basically when we both started coming out as trans. I came out as gender nonbinary in like, 2017, 2018 — or maybe 2016, I don't know. I feel like I've been openly out for like, 10 years.

Sanni

I love that you kind of don't know if it's 2016 or not (laughs).

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

I know! I mean, I've always been gay. But rø and I actually met at a Pizza Luce Block Party show, because she was playing with her band, Static Panic. And then I ended up meeting Keston, who later played in my band, Black Velvet Punks, an all-Black punk rock hip hop group for two and a half years, I played with Keston. rø has taught me sine waves and taught me about audio engineering. And one day I asked her, "Hey, I noticed you have this rotoscope recordings, would you mind helping me mix and master?" I say, I do all the mixing and recording, and she adds the polish. She adds the polish that makes it ready for the radio.

Sanni Brown 

But the mixing, that's the brick building, isn't it?

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

Yeah, and I love that, too. I love figuring out bussing, and —

Sanni Brown 

I have to say this, there is so much to you, and there's not enough time on the show. You got to come back. I love your vibe. There's so much — I said it at the beginning of this interview, you have so much to give. I could just tell. Your energy is so full. So I want people to know about this, you want people to know about this. The Jerome Foundation Artist Hill Fellowship grant. What is that? How did you get into that? And is that something that's open to like future artists? So give us the story.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

Yeah, I want to say first of all, the Jerome Hill Artist Fellowship grant is one of the only grants that's not affected by the Federal disbursement of grant funding by the Trump administration. And this is important to know, because a lot of art funding, like the NEA grant, the National Endowment Arts grant, is being pulled from artists. And so the fact that they told me this is unrestricted grant funding, which means I can do whatever I want with it. They award you $60,000 over three years. So from 2025 to 2028, I get grant funding every May, 20,000 every year until 2028. And it's mine to do with, I don't need to report on it, I don't need to —whatever. Because I've won the Minnesota State Arts Board Cultural Community Partnership grant, that was very restricted. I had to submit a full report. And I won the Metro Regional Arts Council Next Step Fund grant, which was a $5,000 grant. I've won Foundation for Contemporary Arts grant and Red Bull Arts Entertainment grants. So that's the background of all the grants that I've won. But the first grant I ever won was a Spoken Word VERVE grant for Spoken Word Art back in 2017, that was my first grant that I ever won, and it's thanks to Carolyn Holbrook. Carolyn Holbrook, she is an amazing Black elder who was also my academic advisor for a creative writing class at Hamline University in St. Paul. And when I was in undergrad, she's the one that taught me about grants. Ever since then, I have won probably a grant a year for the last 7 years.

Sanni Brown 

You are barred up when it comes to grants.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

It was Carolyn Holbrook, she literally is the one who introduced me to grants. Most artists don't even know about grants, that's why I'm naming all these grants, because I want people to know, to apply, to know that you can fund your art. Had I not known this, I probably would have never gone to college, to be honest (laughs). But obviously I needed to, to meet Carolyn, but the Jerome Hill Artist Fellowship, it's a three year grant, and it's open every two years. So I applied April last year, and then I was awarded it and found out at the end of this year. Me and Tarek Abdelqader, he's an amazing drummer, him and I are the only musicians selected from Minnesota. So it's between the five boroughs of New York and Minnesota, which I'm like, I don't know how they did that, but 20,000 is way different in Minnesota than it is in New York, and I'm very grateful for that (both laugh). I've been using the grant to do the album, to do the beat tape for Manic Pixie Dream Boi. I also do community work in Mexico City, so I did an event called Un Espacio Para El Corazón, which is A Space For The Heart. It was an artist networking series where I brought expats in South and Central Americas and Chilango people, living and working and from Mexico City. I paid everybody, all my collaborators. I worked with Vivian and Brian of The Urban X, which is a Black artist residency program, and they fly New York artists out to Mexico, and Mexico City artists out to New York to do artist residencies, and they're two amazing Black people that speak fluent Spanish, and did language translation during the whole event. And then Angie B. is someone who was Okinawan and Black and indigenous, and she did a guided meditation. And then my friend Jade, my amazing collaborator Jade Fassbinder has helped me put on this event for the last two years, and this year we could actually fund it. Last year, everybody just donated their time. This is all on YouTube and stuff too.

Sanni Brown 

So this is an event?

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

Yeah, it's called Un Espacio Para El Corazón, so it's A Space For The Heart. But we want to make it global. So I want to do it in Amsterdam. I have friends in Amsterdam and Berlin where I want to do the event there. I want to do the event in Chicago. I want to basically have it so that local artists and creatives can connect with people coming into the places. And for me, that was a way to not be a gentrifier. That was a way to come into Mexico City, and instead of just partying and clubbing, and raising the property value, I could actually fund people who live and worked in Mexico City.

Sanni Brown 

That's powerful. That's what this series is?

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

Yeah, that's what this series is about. And I want it to be global. I want it to be in multiple countries. I want us to be in Kenya, I want it to be everywhere.

Sanni Brown 

That's powerful. I understand why you pulling in funding (laughs).

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

I believe that grant funding, too, is community funding. I'm not just gonna spend five grand on a computer for myself, you know? I'm gonna actually invest it. And I hired a Black queer financial advisor named Cayden Black this year. And I'm really, really excited to see where this funding could go. I don't just want to take 20,000, I want to build generational wealth with it. I want to pour into the community with it. And so I've approached grants this way since I first got my first grant. I've always tried to use it to fund, pay my collaborators, people who create with me.

Sanni Brown 

That's beautiful. I love that mindset. And I love that you're using this platform to speak about, you gotta pay your people. You gotta pay your people. And I love that that's a part of what you're doing. It makes sense why you're attracting so much success, you clearly know how to manage it.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

I got that left brain that not a lot of artists have. I like to read emails. I love to respond, read emails. Sometimes when I'm not at work, when I should put my phone away (laughs).

Sanni Brown 

How do we keep up with —

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

So it might have many different names. I would love for it to have a different name in every country. So in Germany, having a Dutch or German translations as well. So it's called Un Espacio Para El Corazón, so that's A Space For The Heart. And then last year, we called el lugar, which is a place versus a space. I have it on up on YouTube, so I have video recaps that our amazing Ecuadorian photographer,  Kari Reina took that you can look at. It's all on my YouTube channel, it's also under Taylor Ngiri Seaberg. You can find me under Taylor Ngiri Seaberg on most things. I've been wanting to keep and retain my maternal grandfather's roots. He's from Nairobi, and so it's very important to me that I go by and Ngiri and I have more publicly for the last six years, so it's been great. And then on Spotify, you can look up either my all Black punk rock band, Black Velvet Punks with Roderick Glasper and Traiveon Dunlap, my bassist, drummer, trio. And you can also look up music under Manic Pixie Dream Boi for my new beats coming out of the new album.

Sanni Brown 

That is inspired by a powerful story. Taylor, thank you so much.

Taylor Ngiri Seaberg 

Thanks for having me. I know we talked about a lot, I rambled (both laugh). It's hard to condense.

Sanni Brown 

I said this offline at the beginning, I already knew you had so much to bring. I could just feel it. You feel very full and peaceful. I love the work you're doing, it is community driven and it shows. And I understand why you got a lot of support backing you. You clearly got a touch to the community. It's beautiful to be able to hear somebody say it, but to be able to see it, too. So I thank you so much for coming in and sharing your vibe, and I know you got to get back outside. Thank you so much.

Cadence and Mattie from NUNNABOVE sat down with Carbon Sound’s host Sanni and talked about what it’s like to be in a band with your siblings as well as the rewarding experiences that have come with it, including meeting and opening up for Chaka Khan.

This interview transcript has been edited for length and clarity.

Sanni

I'm excited about this interview! Carbon Sound in studio — okay, first, let me go ahead and run the credentials. Has performed so far at one of the Minnesota Wild games, has performed at Mall of America's Nickelodeon Universe, has performed at the Minnesota State Capitol, has performed — hello — at the State Fair Grandstand opening for the Chaka Khan and the Boyz II Men, and has also performed on America's Got Talent. And yes, they are local. I have in studio with me from NUNNABOVE, Cadence and Mattie. Welcome Mattie, welcome Cadence. Thank you so much for pulling up.

Cadence 

Thank you so much for having us. I am super excited to be here. I love watching y'all do your thing. You're always on my feed, I'm like, "Yes! Carbon Sound!"

Sanni

I love that when our interviewees — y'all hype, I love that. So first, give us your elevator pitch for those who don't know you, those who are not fans and who play your music all the time on they radio show (laughs).

Cadence 

We are NUNNABOVE. We are a four sibling band from the Twin Cities. I'm Cadence, our sister Mattie on the keys. Our other two brothers are not here, but our third oldest plays guitar, and then the youngest plays drums. The babies.

Sanni

That makes sense that the baby be on the drums — I feel like, dynamic wise.

Cadence 

They always make fun of him. They'll be like, "Oh, you not actually a musician, because you on the drums. Because you don't got any notes." And I'm like, "yes he is."

Mattie  

The joke is — so drums are like the first instrument, you know what I'm saying?

Sanni

Yeah! That's the heartbeat. I'm in rap school, that's what the heartbeat is. Don't sleep on the drums (everyone laughs).

Mattie 

No we not! Drums is first, but it make him irritated. So we be like, "Okay, will all the musicians and Wisdom, please come downstairs."

Sanni

What I'm hearing here is some sibling trolling going on (laughs). So how is that dynamic of doing something as magical as making music, and you're doing it with people who tease you about you being the drummer. How do you balance the dynamic? How do you do it as siblings?

Mattie 

I mean, the way that you do it — and I think this really is the way — if you're gonna do anything with your family, you gotta fight.

Sanni

Oh my God. God bless you (everyone laughs). Baby I feel the same way, baby! Let's go ahead and take it outside (laughs). Wait a minute, Carbon Sound does not condone any violence. But I really do feel the same way. So is that happening in the lyrics? In the music? On the stage? How are you allowing that dynamic?

Cadence 

I think a lot of it happens in rehearsals. We rehearse every day, two, three hours every day. And in rehearsal, if something has gone on and it's on somebody's mind —

Mattie 

Because we also live together, too.

Cadence 

Yeah, we all live together. We got a studio in our basement, and then my wife and I live in the basement. We're in that room, and then the studio is right there, and then everybody else is upstairs.

Sanni

So y'all doing Real World the music version. Oh my goodness. And I'm looking at the credentials, teamwork make the dream work! How are you balancing — because all the siblings wanna know.

Cadence 

You tell me! Balance, what is balance??

Mattie 

We fight daily, and then we get over it and we go along.

Sanni

So what I'm hearing is, you allow room for conflict.

Mattie 

Absolutely.

Cadence 

And we preface it all in we love each other. Like we'll have people be upset about whatever, and we'll say, "It's time for a sibling check in." And we'll all get together. Usually it's in my room for some reason, my rooms like the hub. I've always got warm lights on, and I have plants. I love plants. I'm building like a floral arm sleeve — it's gonna be a whole thing.

Sanni

So you have a sibling regular check in, in your room.

Cadence 

And we'll say, "Alright, everybody go around and give your grievances. And even if you don't like it, our rule is, know that 30% of the time you do it, at least 30% of the time.

Mattie 

Because if somebody come at you like, "Oh my gosh, whenever I ask you to do something, you always yell at me and say no." Even if it's not true, you'd be like, "I don't do that!" Just accept that at least 30% of the time, you be doing that.

Sanni

That is so beautiful. I want to mentally apologize to my man, because I just took 30% accountability in my head like, you know what that number, that's about right. It's probably like 30%.

Cadence 

And that works in all relationships!

Sanni

It was like three walls that just dropped. In my head like, "You know what sis, I probably do do that." So there is a lot of healthy functionality in y'all dynamic.

Cadence 

So I went to school for psych. I majored in psychology, and then I did a minor in ministry and music.

Sanni

I majored in Psych.

Cadence 

You give that, you give that energy, too! So yeah, family dynamics are probably one of the hardest dynamics out there, period.

Mattie 

And family systems, too. Because the thing is, you'll be looking and it's like, "Oh, this one person is always doing stuff in this family.” Like, no, they're filling that wild card role. They're filling that role.

Sanni

Okay, see y'all helping me on some other stuff. So when did you guys decide to go from just siblings to "Yeah, we're gonna do this band thing." When did you make that decision?

Mattie 

2013.

Cadence 

Really young. Yeah, I was 13, okay? And wisdom was eight.

Sanni

I love it. Okay, so you guys were pretty young. And you're making this big decision with your siblings, no less. And it works! I mean, y'all working it. What has been the most rewarding experience?

Cadence 

First of all, that's a crazy good question.

Sanni

Listen I told you, I'm working some things though (laughs). I need to see the light of working with your siblings!

Cadence 

I feel like there are so many moments that stick out to me — obviously opening for Chaka Khan was incredible.

Sanni

And Boyz II Men! That's two different eras of amazingness, and you opened for them!

Cadence 

And she was so kind — so we met her at Paisley Park. We were playing at Paisley Park, I forget the event.

Mattie 

It was a Prince birthday celebration. She was there doing a panel. We performed twice; we did one in the morning, we were gonna do one at night. So it was nine in the morning, we performed, and her security guard, like the head of security, he saw us. He was like, "Yeah, I saw y'all. I took a little video, and I showed Chaka, and she loves y'all."

Cadence 

And so we went back and we saw her panel, and then afterwards, went backstage and she came up to us and was like, "Y'all, you sound — you guys are amazing. I gotta get on a record with y'all."

Mattie 

What she said, she said, "y'all some bad motherf****rs."

Cadence 

She did say that! I didn't know if I could say that (laughs).

Sanni

I love that, we need that! That's the real music! You moved her.

Cadence 

I was very touched. She hugged us, right here (signaling Chaka came up to Cadence's chin).

Sanni

Is she short??

Mattie 

She little. And her presence is so large, it's like, yo, she's amazing.

Sanni

She's from Chicago. I'm from Chicago, too. How did y'all respond?

Cadence  

We were blown away. I was trying not to fan out. I was trying not to fan girl, like, embarrass myself.

Sanni

How did your brothers, how did they handle it?

Mattie 

They were doing the same thing as us.

Cadence 

She hugged everybody, gave everybody hugs. And was like, "I gotta get on a record with y'all." I was like, "what you mean??"

Mattie 

So after Paisley Park, we were like, "Oh, that's great, let's just keep in touch." So our dad, who's our manager, one of the managers, he was like, "I see that she's performing at the State Fair. I wonder if she needs an opener." And so he emailed and he contacted them, and was like, "Hey do you need an opener?" And Chaka's team responded like, "Hey, you can have like 15 minutes of her time.”

Cadence 

Of her time! 15 minutes of her time.

Mattie 

She gave us 15 minutes of her time to put us on at the State Fair. It was really cool. So we were out there —

Cadence 

Tweaking.

Mattie 

Obviously we were tweaking, because we had songs lined up, and our producer was like, "Alright, so you have 15 minutes — these songs is too long." We rearranged the songs so everything could be literally 15 minutes to the dot, with the intro and everything. So we're outside practicing on the actual scale of the Grandstand, from our driveway, because we have a townhouse thing going on. So we're in one of the townhouses, we're outside. We look really silly. They got their guitars and Wisdom's playing in the back. So, you know, the scale of the Grandstand, to see how fast Cadence and Bennett need to be switching and moving so we can get there on the time.

Cadence 

Because Bennett does this thing where — we played "She's Always in My Hair" by Prince, and Bennett does this thing on the Prince guitar solo. He'll run up and put the guitar behind his back and play the solo. And so we were trying to time how long it would take him to get there on the real thing. So we were in our driveway, I was like, "Bennett, run! Do it again. You gotta get quicker!"

Sanni

You guys are practicing outside. Oh, I love this. I love a good music story!

Cadence 

I wish there was some videos of that.

Sanni

Nobody recorded nothing?

Cadence 

You know, there is footage of us — because we that's not the first time we've done this. We did that a lot when we were like 19.

Mattie 

We lived in a smaller place. We practiced outside a lot, because we were learning to dance too at this time. And we were outside once, just dancing to one of our songs. And our dog, she come running down the stairs, and we're filming, because we gotta film yourself to look back. She come running down the stairs, outside the backyard, and all of the sudden she just don't like whatever Bennett is doing. So she just, like, jumps up and starts pushing him. And she like, chases him around the yard. And we're still dancing.

Cadence 

We're practicing. I was like, "We can't let anything distract us."

Mattie 

Right, like I have to get this right. Let's move. So he's just running around, and he's screaming like, "Not like this! River, no!" (Everyone laughs)

Sanni

This was the meatiest first break of a musical guest in here. Okay, so now that we've got the dynamics of you being siblings. Y'all got the system set up, so that y'all can continue going on and grow into NUNNABOVE-ness. And so now I need to know where y'all headed, because you clearly elevating. And I want to catch you, because I noticed a lot of groups, they elevate right out of Minnesota. So this next break, I want y'all to holler at me about what y'all working on right now. It is The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. In studio, I have Cadence and Mattie from NUNNABOVE, which is a four sibling pop group here in the Twin Cities. They have performed for Chaka Khan, they have performed for Boyz ll Men. And now we're gonna find out where else they're performing after this on The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life, this is Music Class.

Sanni

It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. We are in music class with NUNNABOVE. I am doing the absolute most trying not to scream in this microphone. I am in studio with Cadence and Mattie of the four sibling pop group, Bennett and Wisdom are not here. I want to show some respect — which one of them, was the brothers with the dog, was teasing him? It was Bennett. I respect you, man. I respect your hustle (laughs). You holding it down as the lead guitarist. So we've gone over your sibling dynamic, the intentionality of you guys really bringing any issues to the front, I love that. I love you tackling it head on, which leaves so much room for creativity. And obviously it's working for you. So how are you using this creativity? What do you got going on? What's poppin? What's in the future? Because I know y'all got practice or rehearsal today. You're clearly working on something. Let me put it like this, what show are you most excited about that's coming?

Cadence 

Well, I love all the shows we have coming up, but I'm most excited about our Art Series - Sunset, on May 30, 6 to 9pm at The Woman’s Club in Minneapolis.

Sanni

What's that about?

Cadence 

It is a new thing we started. We wanted to create a space where art, and it's various forms could be appreciated at once. Because a lot of times, you can go to a concert and experience a musician — amazing. You can go to an art gallery, look at some paintings and stuff like that, which is great, but a space where multiple artists can get together that do painting, photography, poetry, spoken word, music, everything, and just be appreciated for what it is, I think, is what was missing. So that's what we made, it's called Art Series, and each one — our goal is to have it in a different season. So far, we had one in spring. It was March 30, and it was Art Series - Daisy at the Hennepin History Museum.

Sanni

Wait, what happened at the Daisy?

Mattie 

We had an amazing painter do a live painting to like a small concert. So Sean Garrison came in, and he does a lot of art around the Twin Cities and just everywhere. But he came in and he did a live painting to us doing a small, 30 minute concert. And then there was the art gallery outside. There were collages, poems, I made this dress inspired by the flowers that bloom in Minnesota on the river in March. It was all based around flowers, and we called it Daisy, because we've got a song Daisy coming out soon.

Sanni

I like the promo and the art offering! It's a creative spin on promo, because, one, you're letting your fans know, "Hey, we still in that studio doing that thing." But then also, we're also not just creating an album, like it's a multi-art experience for your fans, because not only do we get to go see you perform this and then other people respond to your art, but we're also telling you about more art.

Cadence 

We're also able to feature artists that need help, and that want to get out there and be seen.

Sanni

What were some of the earlier challenges that you did have when you first started as a band?

Mattie  

Work ethic.

Sanni

Really?

Mattie 

Yeah because, you know, it's four siblings. We're different people. And I just started learning, maybe two, three years ago, how to really like and love my family at the same time.

Sanni

There's a balance, baby.

Mattie 

Sometimes, you feel like you're pulling more weight than somebody else, or they don't want to get up and practice. Or "Why do we have to practice this often?" It's like, because you suck, like you're bad. Like that's why, because you gotta get better. It's just facts. And not everybody was on the same page with exactly what we're doing and why, earlier on. And so it just took time to first of all, prove that this will pay off if you do these things that you don't want to do and that you feel are really tedious and not necessary, and you'll be better for it in every way, even if it doesn't work out. My dad, he keeps saying, like, "Listen, if you all give it your best and you try and try, and you put all your heart and soul into this and it don't work out, that's fine. Go do something else. You're skilled and you're dedicated and you're hard working. Those are skills that are applicable anywhere."

Cadence 

And he would always say, like, "You can always go get a different kind of job."

Mattie 

You can!

Cadence 

But this is a specific thing that has a shelf life — I mean, even part of what we were doing before, in terms of us being really young, and siblings, and Black, and talented, that's gone too. Because I'm 25, just turned 25.

Mattie 

She knocking on 60 right now.

Cadence 

That's crazy (both laugh).

Sanni

The brain just got done cooking. See what life feels like when you're coming from a more cooked perspective (laughs). So work ethic, you clearly got that together, and you're clearly now putting it into these seasonal art series. So you're doing this all the seasons?

Cadence 

We're gonna try it for the first year, yeah.

Mattie 

So this May one, it's May 30, kind of into June. We'll rock that for the summer. And it's focused on legendary women.

Sanni 

I want to know more, why women? Why sunset?

Cadence 

Mother's Day coming up, but it's also at the Woman's Club. And also, women are amazing. Especially in this time, we just need to push.

Sanni

I like to do themes on the show. So the theme is woman. Why sunset? Because as a woman that's kind of scary to hear (laughs). But sunset is a beautiful thing. And the reason I say that is because in the world, a sunset could be a sunset of beauty or a sunset of youth. What's your perspective?

Cadence 

That's a good question. I feel like the real answer to that question is we're holding this whole show on the rooftop of the Woman's Club, and we're gonna have some drones going to get some good footage, and hopefully things will coincide at the sunset.

Mattie 

Yes, we hit golden hour. Golden hour and sunset specifically because the artists we have featured, they're Black women, like legendary Black women, and we look good at golden hour.

Sanni

That's a thing called golden hour? Because you ain't lying. That's when my skin looked the best. Okay, duly noted, golden hour. The spring is here, we wanna make sure we adjust. So again, this is going down the rooftop event Art Series, theme is Sunset and Women. This is going down at the Woman's Club of Minneapolis, May 30. Where can we find this? I just want everybody to know.

Cadence 

All this information is on our Instagram @nunnabove. Also our website, nunnabove.com, and you can also find this particular show on the Woman's Club Minneapolis website.

Sanni

Is there anything that Bennett or Wisdom wanted to leave? A joke or something with us —

Cadence 

Something out of pocket.

Mattie 

Yeah, they would say something out of pocket.

Sanni

Aw man, now I'm kind of wishing they were here (everyone laughs). I didn't ask this yet, but what's the age hierarchy here?

Cadence 

25.

Mattie 

 23.

Cadence 

Bennett is 21 and Wisdom just turned 20.

Sanni

Is there anything that I didn't cover that you guys want to say?

Mattie 

I want to say, the featured artists that we have for the Art Series Sunset are Jearlyn Steele from the Steele Family Singers.

Cadence 

Toured with Prince. And her sister, Jevetta Steele is our performance coach, and she'll come over to our house and critique our shows so that they're up to par, and she'll give us all of her knowledge of touring with Prince, and she's incredible. But yes, we have Jearlyn Steele as a guest, and also Patricia Lacy.

Mattie 

She toured with Luther Vandross, and she was also a member of the Sounds of Blackness for 27 years.

Cadence 

We've performed with Sounds of Blackness a bunch, too. We love Sounds of Blackness.

Mattie 

We love Gary. Shout out Gary Hines.

Cadence 

We were just at their Christmas — not just, it's 2025. But we were in their Christmas show, and their Christmas show is amazing.

Mattie 

Love that show.

Sanni

This is what I'm talking about. Y'all just casually talking about music legends, just casually, literally. So if y'all want to hang out with NUNNABOVE, because they be hanging out with the stars. Make sure you pull up to the Sunset and Women Series at the Woman's Club of Minneapolis, and be sure to follow NUNNABOVE online, because y'all busy, booked busy, like rehearsal in three hours (laughs). Let me get out your way, Cadence and Mattie, I appreciate y'all so much for coming in. Thank you so much. And good luck to you, for real. I ain't gotta say good luck — somebody finna scoop you up. I appreciate y'all, thank you. This is Cadence and Mattie from NUNNABOVE. Much love to Bennett and Wisdom, would love for you guys to come back in again, and I want to get some of their personality too. I want to see the whole full picture of NUNNABOVE. But again, thank you so much. And you guys, be sure to follow NUNNABOVE and keep up with them, because they are booked and busy. We are going to continue on with the show. I still have more songs for you in Music Class, so don't go anyplace. It's The Message Carbon Sound Music for Life.

Taoheed Bayo stopped by to talk to Carbon Sound’s host Sanni about all of his creative endeavors: from events and short films to magazines and books.

Sanni

Lagos in the building! Carbon Sound, Sanni in here with another interview, I have so many questions. I am new to model, designer, director, author, curator, dancer, and more. And as I'm sitting here in front of this magazine, and the vibe and energy that you got coming up off you — Carbon Sound family, Taoheed Bayo, also known as Tbuzz in the Carbon Sound studios, yay! Welcome! Boom, you just said you just came back from Lagos 48 hours (ago). Boom, what was the last thing you ate?

Taoheed Bayo 

You know what's funny, I think being in America for so long, my immune system is like, gone to dust. So I would get to Lagos and overindulge, like I'm eating everything from street food to restaurant, and in the last few days I'm just like, "Maybe I should slow down." The last thing I ate was Pounded Yam, and Egusi, and something called Efo Riro.

Sanni

Efo Riro! That's my dish, baby!

Taoheed Bayo 

Yeah so was my last meal. I think that was Sunday/Monday.

Sanni

West African food is my — I'm Nigerian.

Taoheed Bayo 

No way!

Sanni

Yessir, my people is from Lagos, baby (laughs).

Taoheed Bayo 

Oh, wow! I wasn't privy to that information. Well hello there, my Nigerian sister.

Sanni

Hello, Tbuzz, wow. I mean, everything about you, your essence, your vibe. Whoo. Okay, so for those of us who aren't able to get this whirlwind of who you are, can you give us your elevator pitch? Who are you?

Taoheed Bayo 

Yeah, I usually describe myself as a multidisciplinary, multihyphenate artist rooted in community, exploring movement arts. So that involves curations, performance art, dance, filmmaking, traveling. I think traveling itself is a form of art. I think it's almost forgotten about, because it's not cheap and it's not accessible to everybody. So in my privilege, I have come to understand that travel itself is a form of art. So I describe myself as a traveling artist, as a nomad as well. But yeah, that amongst many other things, and obviously bottom line — human.

Sanni

Just based off your background info I have in your artistic pursuits, Tbuzz' focus lies in illuminating — this is so important to me, because the movie Sinners just came out, and this is why this stuck out to me. Your focus is illuminating Black stories, reflecting an extension of your very being. Why are Black stories important in the work that you do?

Taoheed Bayo 

Well I think being a Black person, as a Black man, as a Black muse, I think one thing I've learned over the years is like, how do we control the narratives? And the only way I feel like to control the narratives is to create our own platform, is to tell our own story, through our own voices. So with that being said, whether it's my voice or the next man's voice, being a Black person, it's like, how do we echo those voices? That way we find resonance in the world, we find resonance in our neighboring cities. So for me, it's very important to use my Blackness to shape the way I move around in the world.

Sanni

I hear you say Blackness. Now I know you from — are you from Lagos, Nigeria?

Taoheed Bayo 

Born and raised.

Sanni

Okay, so then you understand about the tensions between African Americans and African immigrants. And so both of my parents, they mixed. So we've had that conversation — I got a African American mama and a Nigerian daddy. So it's an interesting conversation to see had. Do you include that in the Black stories and in the Black conversations?

Taoheed Bayo 

I feel like Blackness is limitless and dynamic, in that the way I describe Blackness might be different from the way that you describe Blackness, but I think when I think about Blackness I think about like this unity of Black people around the world. I'm talking about Black people in Africa itself, I'm talking about Black people in the United States, I'm talking about Black people in Jamaica, I'm talking about Black people in Trinidad and Tobago. I'm talking about Black people in Brazil, and never crevicing corners of the world. So when I say Blackness, it's like an all-encompassing word that kind of just includes everybody. In places like Lagos, for example, it's hard for you to even use words like Black, because everybody there is just Black (laughs). But then, as you travel the world, and you're in spaces like the United States, or like anywhere else besides Africa, you would have to describe yourself — use that word to kind of describe your experiences.

Sanni

I consider myself to be a creative, and just looking at your visuals, you have a magazine here. I'm hearing about a film, the magazine alone is blowing my mind. So where did all of this explosive creativity start? Like, when you were young, help us (laughs).

Taoheed Bayo 

It's funny, it didn't start young. I've always been a curious being. From a little kid, I was a little rascal. I always had questions. You know how kids ask, "Why? Why?" I was definitely a "why" kid. And I think that curiosity led me to having expansiveness in the way that I see the world. I'm just curious about how that works. I actually, I'm not an art student. I went to school to study mathematics (laughs).

Sanni

I mean, it makes sense in the world you are in, just like intrinsic mathematics, but that is weird. You went to school for mathematics and you're doing all of this creativity.

Taoheed Bayo 

Exactly, and I think it's allowing yourself room to be multitudes. I think that's one thing I've learned over the years is like there are these boxes, there are these expectations that we can be modest about, but then knowing that you can be humble, but still be multitudes is kind of what I've allowed myself to grow into. So I went to school for mathematics, graduated in 2020, but between 2018 and 2020 while going to college was when I started modeling, dancing and just kind of exploring all the different forms of art. This magazine was made in collaboration with my friend who is the editor in chief, Mark Odumuyiwa. We both went to the U together, so we became friends while going to college. And for me, I think my relationships is really what's guided my path as an artist. If I'm friends with you and you're doing something, my urge is that I want to collaborate with you at some point, and then that might lead to a magazine, that might lead to a film, that might lead to a conversation that I remember down the line, or it's even recorded, so I think that's how I got into exploring the arts.

Sanni

So you were an adult when you really started to bloom and find out these, like you said, multifaceted parts of you.

Taoheed Bayo 

Exactly. Yeah, it definitely was. This was 2018.

Sanni

So for all the young folks, if young folks listening and you like "I ain't found it yet." Just chill! Relax.

Taoheed Bayo 

There's time! I think understanding there's time, and grace as well. And sometimes I'm like, "Ah I wish I went to art school, maybe this thing might have been in a faster pace." But then I'm also understanding that allowing the time and giving myself grace to understand that these things are happening in divine timing. So yeah, it's more than enough time.

Sanni

I just want to lay this out, you have a short film. Could you just give me a little bit about that?

Taoheed Bayo 

So I made that short film, I believe it was April 2022.

Sanni

Wait what's the name?

Taoheed Bayo 

Ààrẹ. In Yoruba culture, it can be used to describe a king, a leader, royalty. It also kind of just means like this expansive being. So that is the title of the film, and in that title, I was exploring archival Yoruba practices, oral traditions, poetry and obviously, dance, as you can see in the film. That film started from a place of curiosity as well. I remember seeing the headpiece in my friend's closet, and I was like, "Hey, it reminds me of royalty. It reminds me of like the kings in Africa, in Nigeria." And then I reached out to a poet of mine who is Nigerian, like, "Hey, I just saw this headpiece. I'm thinking about a film, but I need poetry, and I'm gonna need spoken words to really send this message across the audience, or to even for me to better understand this thing that I want to do." He replies, saying "Yeah, I can write poetry for this." So he sent the poem. I reached out to another friend, and we're shooting, like, less than a week after finding the headpiece.

Sanni

So inspiration, called the lyricist, called the film director. And again, this all started — you're an adult. This is your network.

Taoheed Bayo 

This is my network. A friend of mine will usually say "Art is urgent." And even though we've spoken about time and grace earlier, there's almost like a yin and yang relationship in understanding the spectrum of things. It doesn't always have to be slow, it doesn't always have to be still. It could also be quick and fast. So finding balance, really, truly. Sometimes a project might take me two months to start, and some might start in like, 30 minutes. And I already know everybody that's working on the project.

Sanni

You're saying "Let it be." The art calls for the timing that it needs.

Taoheed Bayo 

Exactly.

Sanni

And so you saying this your process.

Taoheed Bayo 

This is my process.

Sanni

Oh my gosh! Tbuzz in the building. I needed to be in this space with you.

Taoheed Bayo 

I'm glad to be in company.

Sanni

Oh my goodness, Tbuzz, Taoheed Bayo, local model, designer, director, author, curator, dancer and more, dropping the gems on the creatives, because you know how we get in our heads. And so it's just nice to hear a creative speak to their experience. We will be right back. I got a bunch of questions for you. In fact, what I would like to know — so we've talked about your magazine, and we've talked about your short film. You got a book too?? Lord have mercy. Okay, so when we get back, we're gonna get into that.

Taoheed Bayo 

About the magazine, I'd like to also credit the other person, which is Mark Odumuyiwa. He was the mastermind that really said, "Hey, I want to highlight community" and invited me onto the project as a art editor and creative director, so I just wanted to put that out there.

Sanni

You gonna have plenty of time to give him some love, because we've done the magazine, went over the film, and now we're going to get to the book, and then we're going to get to some events.

Taoheed Bayo 

Lovely.

Sanni

Okay, Taoheed Bayo, also known as Tbuzz, in the Carbon Sound Studios. We'll be right back, because again, creatives, we got the gems. Don't go any place.

Sanni

In studio, Carbon Sound, we are in Music Class. We are really learning today. Taoheed Bayo, also known as Tbuzz, local model, designer, director, author, curator, dancer, and more. I feel like that "and more" is so disrespectful. So far we've gone over your magazine Something To Say. And I mean, I feel like we didn't even touch on it, why is it called Something To Say?

Taoheed Bayo 

So my friend, co-collaborator of almost seven, eight years now, Mark, in our conversations we spoke about how we needed something like this when we started seven, eight years ago. And that the fact that we had things that we wanted to share, things that we wanted to say, but there was no platform for us to really echo that. So for him, the title — Mark came up with it in that conversation, in that breath of like "We actually have something to say."

Sanni

There's that urgency you're talking about.

Taoheed Bayo 

Exactly. We have something that needs to be heard. We have voices that need to be amplified and echoed. So that's kind of that title came about.

Sanni

Wow. This is a beautiful piece of work. You didn't just throw this together. This is some talented people. I mean, who's featured in here? Who all do you have?

Taoheed Bayo 

A lot of local artists, actually. I think 90% of the people in the magazine are actually people that are either living in Minneapolis, from Minneapolis, converged in Minneapolis, and other organizations as well that are doing good stuff. Samambo is in there, ITS Fest is in there, Fluidtranquility/Kaya is in there, Yasmeenah is in there.

Sanni

Just the messaging you have in here, I love this, just opening this up: "Things that are difficult to understand are worth talking about."

Taoheed Bayo 

Yes, and that was written by Kaya (Fluidtranquility), brilliant designer, DJ, and more. And just in the way that you describe me, I think he's a multidisciplinary, multihyphenate person. And I remember in the beginning of making the magazine, and we're finding who we want to include in this magazine, that was literally one of the first things I mentioned. Because I'd hang out with him, and in our company, we've spoken about so many things, and I've always just been curious about his mind. And then I told him, literally, I was like, "Hey, you're one of the people in this magazine where I'm literally just gonna let you do whatever you want to do."

Sanni

Wow. That's so important. I don't know whose supervisor I'm listening to, but let the artist be the artist! That's so important.

Taoheed Bayo 

Exactly, I was like, "I just want to learn about the things that you are curious about. I want to learn about your process. I want to learn about the things that you're obsessed over, the things that you're observing and seeing." And, yeah, he wrote about his observations, he wrote about his thoughts, and that's kind of how that came about.

Sanni

It's risky, though. I know you said art can go slow sometimes, but it can be urgent, too. How do you handle risk? Because there's so much risk in art, how do you juggle that? In order to get the real, you got to go through that messy stuff. So how do you balance that?

Taoheed Bayo 

I think it's a high risk, high reward environment. I went to school for risk management as well (both laugh).

Sanni

I'm so glad you said it, when I said in the last break you went to school for mathematics, and it kind of fits into this, that's what I mean!

Taoheed Bayo 

Yeah, it does. It does. So I did a minor in risk management. And then in theory, you learn that the more risk, the more reward. So in understanding that is also understanding that, like for an artist to create from a place of abundance, there's so much mess in that place, there's so much questions and so many risks, as you said. And art is not perfect. The imperfection of art is what makes it art. So understanding that whatever this person comes up with, would find resonance with somebody. Maybe not me, it could be the next man or the next woman or the next person. So yeah, just allowing that fluidity, which is funny, because the name of the artist that wrote that is Fluidtranquility. So allowing that fluidity in the creations is risky, but it always pays off. In my experience, it has always paid off because then you just have these people that are really expressing themselves without limits, expressing themselves from a place of abundance.

Sanni

Is that who you're featuring in here? People who are comfortable with being risky? Why is it important to highlight Minnesota creatives in the way that you do?

Taoheed Bayo 

I was born and raised in Lagos, but I've been living here since 2015 and in my experience, I just experienced and encountered so many talented and brilliant artists, beings —

Sanni

Someone from Lagos is saying it! I've been here since early 90s, but I'm still in awe (laughs). And I mean in creativity, in film direction, and music and in painting, like I'm not understanding the artistry here. I just don't understand it (laughs).

Taoheed Bayo 

It's endless, truly is endless. I mean, I've traveled the world, and I always echo, like "Yo, Minneapolis is one of the places." This year, especially, I've been inviting people to come to Minneapolis. I hosted one of my friends, I want to say in February, just for him to come see what the city is about, and kind of meet people and kind of understand that, like, wait, just as Paris and London has this brilliant and mass of like talent, it exists here as well.

Sanni

Man, I'm so glad you said that. I just visited New York, I graduated from rap school, and I wanted to feel what New York was. And I do feel like there's an element here. I'm just so happy that we have artists like you, creatives like you — not only are you just feeling it, you're creating. You got a magazine, you got a film, you got a book — we didn't get to the book! Move, I Dare You. What's that about?

Taoheed Bayo 

I mean, just like in the title itself, it's like an invitation. Like I dare you to do this, it's a risk. It's an invitation to explore. Invitation to transit. In Transit, I've learned so many things about myself, so many adventures, so many questions that I've had have been answered, and even more questions added to that.

Sanni

You're saying in the middle of the motion, you're getting stuff that's inspiring the arts.

Taoheed Bayo 

Exactly. I'm finding answers to the questions I had, and then maybe even gathering more questions. So with me, with Move, I Dare You, it started as an invitation to transit and servitude as well. I think you owe it to yourself to travel, you owe it to yourself to transit.

Sanni

And I love this — it's described as the book is a manifestation of servitude, this my part right here — childlike curiosities. What's that about? I feel like in our adult world, we got to pay bills and mortgage and trust funds and all this stuff, and we forget that childlike curiosity. So why is that important to include that?

Taoheed Bayo 

And I think it goes back to that risk, right? Kids are the biggest risk-takers. They have no restrictions, no bounds. They're very expansive in the way they just move about. So when I think about my childlike curiosities, I think about the things that I dreamt about and had not done yet, and I'm like, "When do I do them?" And telling myself the time is now to do this. Time is now to travel, the time is now to collaborate with this person. So that childlike curiosity is this yearning for more, this yearning to know what lies across the river, or lies across the plain. Yeah, it's just curiosities.

Sanni

Creativity, like you said, it could be messy and it's urgent and it's slow and it's just all these things, and I feel like you allowing yourself to just be who TBuzz is, it's making sense for me, like everything is clicking. So we got to the magazine, we got to the film, we got to the book. What's up with the events? Where you about to be? Because I know I'm not gonna be able to find you once you leave the studio (laughs).

Taoheed Bayo 

The events all started under the house Artropolis, which in the title in itself, art and polis. Art and polis, metropolitan, city. And just understanding how art is a thread of the cities, or a thread of cities. Without art, there's kind of no city.

Sanni

Yeah! You said without no art, there is no city. That's a bold statement. Why do you feel that way?

Taoheed Bayo 

Because artists are the ones that are reimagining things. I feel like nothing is new under the sun. Land is always there. Skeletons are always there. The bodies, the institutes are always there. But artists are the ones that are free enough to reimagine these spaces. How do we make this static thing a breathing and living space, a canvas for us to paint on. So that's where Artropolis started from. It started from that curiosity of like, how do we make our cities? How do we make our friendships breathing alive and living? How do we gather intentionally? How do we query ourselves and ask questions together and find this sharedness? Because I feel like we share so much in community. Yeah, so that's kind of where Artropolis started from.

Sanni

I'm hearing urgency, I'm hearing messiness. Do you ever have bad ideas?

Taoheed Bayo 

Yeah, I feel like all good ideas sometimes come from like bad ideas. Bad feels like a negative connotation, maybe just incomplete.

Sanni

Yeah — I'm sorry, incomplete or undercooked. What do you do with the ideas where initially it might not seem like it's a great idea, but you might have to go back. How do you even learn how to do that? Because you're saying it's not bad, it's just undercooked. I might need to live out five more months before this idea makes sense (laughs). So how do you approach that? How do you approach an idea that like it's good, but it still needs something?

Taoheed Bayo 

Yeah, experiences. You just experience more, like you said. You travel more. I feel like traveling, friends say, "Traveling is the ultimate mood board." The things you're seeing, the places you're visiting, the conversations you're having, that really is the template for everything.

Sanni

You're helping me understand why I love traveling — my Fiancé hates road trips. I love road trips because the visuals, when I come back, I'm ready to hit the ground running. And you're making sense of it. My body and my soul is telling me all of these things. Wow. Artropolis — this is a three night series that centers music as a medium and a conduit for collaboration, self expression, and cultural exchange. So this is a three night event.

Taoheed Bayo 

This had happened already. So this was a proposal to RESOURCE Minneapolis, I want to shout them out as well, it's a community space allowing artists to really just do what they want to do within the space. So they had an open call for submissions, and I submitted Artropolis Sonics, which is like the sonic room within Artropolis. Three night event, the first night was a Vinyl Night, and then it graduated into, like a Work in Progress Night, where we then invited artists like Moise, Miloe, SoulFlower, and papa to play unreleased music and share the work in progress and interact with audience. And the last night was Islamic Jazz Night, because it was during Ramadan. So that was that three part series for Artropolis Sonics at RESOURCE. So Artropolis is a form of installation that's going to be happening in different places, different spaces within the community, within the global landscape that I exist in. So Artropolis now within, in the next few months, will be installed, actually, at the Walker Art Center. So I'm working in collaboration with the teams there, along with a guild of about four people, which I'll actually name them, because more than ever, it's important to name people. Kwey of Samambo, Philli of ITS Fest, Awa Mally of Ahomé, and Ubah Abdullahi of Nu Aqaal. So these four people that I mentioned, I'm working day in, day out with them, with the Walker team, to imagine three summer events between July and September, and how we turn the Walker into a breathing canvas. How do we reimagine the spaces that already exist within this body of institutions? So yeah, really excited for that summer event series. So Artropolis Sonics was at RESOURCE, Artropolis — I think the theme is called Emerging Crossroads and Tangential Futures. And we're just kind of exploring the parallels and perpendiculars of culture, art, community, and our shared desires. So yeah, I'm really excited.

Sanni

Listen, you should definitely consider thinking about creating spaces for those of us who are 40 plus, because everything you just described with a nice little cocktail sounds amazing (laughs).

Taoheed Bayo 

There will be cocktails. There'll definitely be cocktails (laughs).

Sanni

One thing I notice about art, Bob Marley has a quote that says, "It hits you, but you feel no pain." And what I'm feeling when I see your work, when I hear you describe it, it's just like this artistic — like there's a nice, warm breeze. Like it's just comfortable and I feel seen, and I'm seeing, and just your essence, your vibe, does that. So I just want to thank you. And where can we follow you, where can we keep up with this, especially at the Walker. That's going to be a summer series?

Taoheed Bayo 

Yes, summer series. You can follow me at tbuzz.gram on Instagram. Artropolis.world on Instagram as well. I'm sure the Walker is going to make a public engagement announcement soon. Those are ways to keep up tab. I feel like Instagram, social media is the best way to stay in touch.

Sanni

Is there any way that locals can support you as well? Like your magazine, your book, your film. How can we support that?

Taoheed Bayo 

Yes, currently working on the second issue of the magazine, so we're applying to grants, we're looking for sponsorships for the magazine. With Move, I Dare You, I still have a few copies. No hurry to sell them, I think it's an archival piece. It's timeless.

Sanni

I'm watching how art can be emotional intelligence, I like what you just did (both laugh).

Taoheed Bayo 

Exactly. So honestly, I think I printed 175 copies of this. I think I have 50 copies left, thinking of ways to sell them and share them with the local community here and beyond. Artropolis, I'm also applying to multiple, multiple grants, because beyond the events happening at the Walker, I want to continue this for eternity, if possible.

Sanni

Y'all better hook up with Tbuzz because I don't know if he gonna be in this orbit long. No, I just noticed it makes sense that when we have artists like you and the communities that you're creating, it makes sense that the rest of the world is like, "Yeah, we're gonna need you." So if this is the last time I see you and your global, just — I knew it (laughs). Thank you so much. Taoheed Bayo, also known as Tbuzz, coming in here with all the magnificence. Creators, definitely somebody to follow. From where I'm standing, it just feel like you really got your stuff together (both laugh). And so I appreciate you coming in and taking some time and letting us know, and come back!

Taoheed Bayo 

I'm excited to! I love the stuff that Carbon Sound has been working on. echo, I've always been a fan of his intention. I think all of these is all about intentionality, the need to gather community. I was in Lagos, like I said, 48 hours ago, but a week ago I went to a talk. And then it was space owners in Amsterdam and music people. And they were talking about how for them to find musicians, they usually go to independent radio stations. And that's what Carbon Sound has been doing with local artists. With local artists, with visiting artists, Carbon Sound has kind of created this space, this room, for them to come be themselves and express themselves. So I wanted to shout out that initiative as well. It needs to continue. We need to kind of create our own spaces, create our own platforms, and kind of control the narratives. When you have platform, you can kind of control the narratives.

Sanni

Or add some new ideas to the narratives. Again, appreciate you. Taoheed Bayo, thank you so much for pulling up. Thank you for what you're doing. Everything you're doing, it's validating everything I'm already thinking about the Minnesota music scene. Thank you so much for being here.

Taoheed Bayo 

Of course, thank you for having me, and I'm glad to be in company.

k3ko sat down with Carbon Sound’s host Sanni and talked about upcoming music, her On The Radar experience, BandLab, and more.

Sanni Brown 

It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. Sanni here, up with our next interview. I am not familiar with k3ko, but I heard this song, "moonlight" and baby, I got to know some things. So before we start: born and raised in Minneapolis, k3ko felt like she was born singing. From talent shows to house parties, she spent years building her stage presence and perfecting her craft. She now has focused her talents on becoming a dedicated recording artist, which has gained her a fast growing recognition in the cities. You done did an album on BandLab, you done been featured On The Radar and again, back to this single "moonlight," ladies and gentlemen of the Carbon Sound family audience, welcome k3ko yay!

k3ko 

Thank you for having me here.

Sanni Brown 

Is it really like that? Is the resume like that? (Laughs)

k3ko 

Yeah, just a little bit. Not too much.

Sanni Brown 

This a lot though. Just off the top, first of all, I really like that song "moonlight."

k3ko 

Thank you.

Sanni Brown 

I love that a lot. Just off the top my head, before I get into the meat of the interview, what type of music is that called? Because I see that you blend R&B, pop, hyperpop, and Jersey club influences. I asked because Ciara has a song called "Promise," and it's like an airy kind of — and that's what that "moonlight" is bringing. How would you define that song?

k3ko 

I don't know. When I first started making music, I was doing a lot of the hyperpop, like Jersey club stuff, because it was easy and it was fun. And then I was like, "I sing for real." So I needed to just get on an R&B beat. I don't know, I just found the beat from YouTube. When I make songs, I just try to match the vibe and the energy of the beat. I would just say it's like a sensual R&B type of sound. It's very soft, but it's deep.

Sanni Brown 

Yeah, it is. I love that. There's layers to that song, just instantly hearing it upon the first time. Okay, so let's take it back. How did you get into all of this? How did you become k3ko? Or should I say musically, because, I mean, we could sit here for three hours. What started you in music? What started you out wanting to create music?

k3ko 

Well, I've always been a singer, from when I can remember. I don't remember learning how to sing or starting it. I just remember knowing how to sing. My friend that I brought with me, when we were really young, we used to just sing. I don't know, I just used to perform and sing. I love to sing. I never thought about making music though. I thought it was too difficult and too tedious. I was young though, I ain't go through nothing yet. So I'm like, "I'm gonna just sing Rihanna and Beyoncé and call it a day." I don't know, I just got up one day and I was like, "I can make a song." I'd just go on YouTube, find a beat and just vibe to it. And that's what I did. I used to just write songs in my notes and record on voice memos just to hear it back. But anytime I went to a studio to record, the vibe wasn't there. I was on a scheduled amount of time, and I didn't know the engineers very well, so they didn't really know how to help me — just working together. It just kind of felt like "There's a mic, go ahead and sing." And I needed a lot more help than that, so that was kind of discouraging. But someone told me about BandLab, and I was like, "What?" So I downloaded it and I tried it. I played around with it, and I was like, "Oh, this is a vibe right here." Because I could take my time. I don't really like writing, because I think too much and it slows me down. So when I get on BandLab — that's why I would record everything back, because I'm like, "I need to hear what this sounds like." But I can't hear a fully produced record if it's not fully produced. So when I got on BandLab, I was like, "Oh my god, this is way easier." I could just vibe. I can hear how it sounds just right away. I scrapped all the songs that I wrote in my notes, and I just started punching in songs on BandLab. And I've already been a SoundCloud listener; I like using SoundCloud as a music streaming platform. So I was just like, "I could just post it on SoundCloud." Tell everybody on Instagram to go listen to my music. And that's really where it came from.

Sanni Brown 

You know, as you're sitting here talking about it — and I know when it's your story, you're just telling it — can you hear "moonlight?" It has such an incredibly rich sound to it, the quality of it. And you're just like, "Yeah, I just got on BandLab, you know —" (laughs). So how do you know when a song is done? Because I've used BandLab in school. I'm in rap school, and we had to put together some stuff for us for one of the assignments, and we used BandLab. And that was complicated for me, because I just was unfamiliar with it. So to know that you are creating music with that, how do you know you're done with the song?

k3ko 

I used to think that I had to do all of the ins and outs, like I got to make sure I got the main vocals and the background vocals and the ad libs and all that. But the more I do it, if I like how it sounds, then that's it. That's why I never felt no type of way about using BandLab and dropping those songs, because I'm like, "I like how it sounds."

Sanni Brown  

It sounds incredible.

k3ko 

I don't really care to do too much to make it sound the crazy — if it sounds good, I'll drop it. But usually I like to do my harmonies and my layers, and that's when I feel most comfortable with the song, is if I have the layers down and I can create the experience around the sound for real.

Sanni Brown 

I only asked this because you were featured on On The Radar.

k3ko  

Oh, yeah. (Both laugh)

Sanni Brown 

Has anybody ever told you you have a vibe like Aaliyah?

k3ko 

I never got that, like, my vibe was like Aaliyah, but my music —

Sanni Brown 

You just have a really laid back vibe, just like, really gentle. But I'm just listening to the music, and what you're doing is really big.

k3ko 

I feel like I am pretty laid back, though. I try to stay humble.

Sanni Brown 

Is that the vibe in your music? You put that vibe in there?

k3ko 

Yeah, I make a lot of love songs. I make a lot of heartbreak songs, just emotional music. So I don't feel the need to overdo the presentation of it, because it's real, it's relatable, and I'm still me, I don't know. I just be chill. I like to sing, I like to sing my songs, and I'm still gonna be me.

Sanni Brown 

It feels authentic. The vibe feels like it is what it is. Ok so we gonna get into this On The Radar situation. Because I want to know, I want to know what that was like, how they contacted you, what it was, everything. So we gonna play some music, and then when we get back, we gonna talk about this On The Radar feature. In studio, Carbon Sound on The Message in Music Class we have k3ko, Minneapolis based artist. In the meantime, y'all listen to some music. Once we go off the air, y'all can listen to "moonlight." Stay tuned, k3ko in Music Class on The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life.

Sanni Brown 

All right, it's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. I have another interview for you today. If you just pulled up, we are on the second half. We're on the most exciting part I feel like, I have k3ko, Minneapolis based artist, born and raised in Minneapolis been sanging long as she knew how to sang, has been featured on On The Radar, Ice Spice, Central Cee, Drake and them have been featured here, and you were featured there. You also have a song with local artist Riotgrrrldarko and you were also featured on Carbon Sound's favorite tracks from February with that song "moonlight." So how did you get featured on On The Radar?

k3ko 

It was really spontaneous. I was in New York working with my label on just content and developing the tape that I'm about to drop.

Sanni Brown 

Okay, Imma mark that hold on, "that tape I'm about to drop." Okay.

k3ko 

It wasn't as crazy as a lot of people think. A lot of people asked me how I got on there, but it wasn't that crazy. You know how they do the street performances with the mic? A couple people wanted to do that for me, and I brought it up to my label, and they were like, "you could just do On The Radar." And I was like, "What??" They're like, "Yeah, easy. We'll set that up for you, you're good." And then it was just that, they set it up, and I went over there. It was really chill. For it being On The Radar, it wasn't as flashy and crazy — I was nervous for that, because I'm like, "I'm not no celebrity."

Sanni Brown 

What happens?

k3ko 

I walked in, there was only two people there, a photographer and an engineer, and they were super cool. They were super chill. They're just like, "Yeah, your song's great. Just go up there." They have a whole little setup with the mics and the cameras, and they're just like, "Just go up there and just sing your song. You could do it live, or you can lip sync it." I decided to lip sync it because the song that I was using was too fast, and a lot of the layers were kind of on top of each other, so I didn't want to be on there stuttering and mumbling and stuff. So I'm just like, "Y'all can play it. I'll just perform it. I got you."

Sanni Brown 

The performance matters too, and it's your song.

k3ko 

It was super chill. We rolled up, we smoked a little bit. I got on the mic, and the photographer was hyping me up in the back. I did a couple takes. They were all good, but they just wanted to do multiple takes, just to see if anything special or if any takes was just better than the others. It was really easy; it was really simple. It was chill. They showed me what I look like, and I was like, "Oh my god, I look so good!" And, yeah, it was that simple. It wasn't no crazy, flashy — I appreciate the experience, and I know it was very big for me and for Minneapolis, but it just felt like some chill, felt like this almost. Like we're just chilling, with the mic and the cameras.

Sanni Brown 

But you know something, for me I think that lends to your authentic vibe. Because I get a "it is what it is" with you. For me, I like that. I like when I'm around "it is what it is" people. I don't like when I feel like I got to be psychic to be in your presence (laughs). So if that's what the music was, then that's what it was. It's cool. Now back to this tape drop, project that's in the works. What tape you talking about? Because I usually hear rappers talk about dropping tape. And I hear you, I hear you on "moonlight." The vocals is there. So what's up with the tape drop?

k3ko 

So the tape is called Forever, it's mostly an R&B tape, "moonlight" is on there. That's my first drop from the tape. I made "moonlight" like two years ago, and it's just a gem so I put it on the tape. I have a couple other songs on the tape that I made like a year or two ago. I'm just trying to show my skill and my talent, because like I said, I started doing just the fun, easy stuff, and I'm just posting it on SoundCloud like, "Y'all can have this, y'all can have that." And going to parties, it was easy to perform those songs too, because people don't really have to think too much, it's a party song, it's a dance song. But I thought it was necessary to actually put out a tape that's consecutive and I'm actually showcasing what I can do. I can sing, and I can hop on different types of beats, and you can still feel what I'm singing about or what I'm saying, so I'm excited for the drop. I haven't dropped in a while. I just started dropping again after the On The Radar.

Sanni Brown 

That's what I was gonna ask, what happened after you came back from all that?

k3ko 

The On The Radar, I actually did last year in April I think. It takes a while for them to put the videos out, and there's like a lineup of people who have to get their videos out too. So that's why mine ended up coming out not right when I did it. But after the On The Radar was posted, it just felt like the time to just keep the momentum. That's why I dropped "moonlight." The tape is pretty much done, we're just working on how we're gonna put it out. So I'm excited.

Sanni Brown 

I was gonna say, I'm excited! I'm excited to hear what you got. "moonlight" is an incredible song to throw out there man, I like that. I dig the song and shout out to BandLab. You might need to come give me a tip or two or something. I've worked with BandLab before, I didn't know that you were able to produce that quality of music. That's insane.

k3ko 

Yeah, I didn't know you could do that either. Because I know about GarageBand and other mobile or easier apps to make music on, but when I heard about BandLab I was like, "Oh this is cool."

Sanni Brown 

It is really cool. It really is. It clearly is a resource, so local artists, that's a resource. I think in the community, there's the family favorites that everybody likes. So this is my first time actually hearing this quality of music and BandLab in the same conversation. So I'm super impressed. I'm about to bother my boss to get this "moonlight" on here, and we will be looking out for that tape drop. So we'll be looking out for the Forever mixtape by k3ko. In the meantime, how can we keep up with you? Or are you one of those artists that like to be in the cut? (Laughs)

k3ko 

I love interacting with people. I love posting and promoting, but I do get into a little bubble sometimes. Because I'm an energy person, I think a lot and I feel a lot, so sometimes I can overthink how I present myself on the media, but I really don't do too much. I be on Instagram, that's my main platform for just interacting with people or promoting my music. I think it's easy. I think it's fun. I think Instagram has also grown to be more of a platform that you can do that on, so I'm glad to be a part of that, but that's where I am. I used to do a lot more performances for parties and shows and stuff like that, but since I've been more in the R&B route of music, I haven't done too much of the party lit stuff. I don't want to be a hyperpop artist. I like the upbeat and the fun dance stuff, but I'm a singer. I love singing and I love emotional music, so that's how I want to present myself as an artist.

k3ko performing in 2023

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Sanni Brown 

I love that. I love that so much. I grew up in the 90s, R&B was real heavy in the 90s. I know hip-hop made a big footprint between the 90s and now. So it's so nice to see R&B artists being like, "No, I'm an R&B artist. I sing." I am so excited to hear Forever. I'm so excited. How can we support you as an artist? What can we do to support you? And not just us here at Carbon Sound obviously, but listeners, fans. How can we support you? Look out for that tape Forever (laughs).

k3ko 

I guess I could just say, I make real music. And I feel like the things that I sing about, and the things that I make music about — I can make a million songs, but it takes a lot of emotion, and it takes a lot of going through stuff to come out with these songs.

Sanni Brown 

It sounds like you're more focused on how your songs are influencing people. You're not worried about numbers and stuff like that. You just want the music to touch.

k3ko 

Yeah, because I know that especially this generation and the time for music right now is very fast paced, there's a lot of artists in and out. And I feel like it's because a lot of the stuff is just trendy or it's just for the moment. But I would love to make timeless music, and I feel like I make music that you should listen to. I don't know how to explain that. I don't think all the power is in my hands to do this. There's a lot of beautiful artists out there that can do the same thing. But I kind of want to bring that back to music, like people actually feeling music and being like, "This song got me through something" or "This song made me realize something." I guess what you said, I do want to influence through the music.

Sanni Brown 

That's what I do on this show! I've come from a rough background. So I talk about how — I literally use music, like "This song got me through." So I adore your answer. And obviously, you want to be successful at what you do, but it sounds like you're not measuring it by "Go buy this" and merch, but sit with the music. k3ko says "Sit with the music." Love it! Thank you so much for coming in.

k3ko 

Of course!

Sanni Brown 

And for real, sharing your vibe. They need to bottle you up and put you at the help stores (laughs). I appreciate you, and I really appreciate your answer and how you are showing up for your music. Forever is the mixtape that we are looking for, for k3ko, Minneapolis based artist, thank you so much for coming in.

k3ko 

Thank you for having me.

Sanni Brown 

Yay!

Ahead of her Minneapolis stop on the 1 of 1 Reflections of Lyte Tour, legendary hip-hop artist MC Lyte chatted with Carbon Sound’s host Sanni Brown. In her interview, she talked about her most recent album, her esteemed career, and more.

Sanni Brown 

So you are out on tour for your most recently dropped album, 1 of 1, and just judging from the featured artists, I feel like this is credibility, this is clout. This is Queen Latifah, Common, Lil Mama, Mary Mary, Muni Long. You got old school, you got new school. Could you just give us a little bit of insight on how that all came together, this album?

MC Lyte 

Absolutely. Well, working with Warryn Campbell, the multi-platinum award, Grammy nominee, winning, he has just accomplished so much. And so with working with him, we kind of think alike. We weren't thinking about the guest until the song was done. And as the song started to be developed, we said, "Oh, you know, this feels like so and so would good be good on this" or the song with Common and Stevie Wonder, that music just calls for both of them. And so it was pretty simple, thinking of who we wanted. Now getting who we wanted just fell into place because most of the people are actually friends, people that I know, people we grew up in this business together. I think the only person that I didn't know was Ghostface Killah, and when I reached out to him, he was like, "Oh queen! Oh my god! Can I tell you — ‘I Cram To Understand U’ got me through." When he was in prison, he was listening to MC Lyte. And he had a certain amount of admiration, just as I do for his work, and so it was pretty easy to make all of the guest appearances happen. And for the second installment, we've got Toni Braxton, we got Slick Rick, Anthony Hamilton. So we already have songs lined up for the next go round.

Sanni Brown 

Oh my goodness.

MC Lyte 

I think the whole album is just a spiritual reflection of what it is that I've gone through for the last 10, 12 years, and I just tried to encapsulate it in some lyrics, so that people could really understand not just where I am — as fans, people want to know where are you in your life, because it leads to some sort of inspiration, or can lead to some inspiration for others. It was also just me coming to terms with where I am in hip-hop and what I am allowing myself to be or call entertainment. It was just a whole new way to approach a record and to let God be the guiding light for it.

Sanni Brown 

I really have questions about your earlier career. What do you feel like you were determined about earlier on in your rap career? And right now during this album, do you feel like you've accomplished that?

MC Lyte 

Well, in the beginning it was just letting my generation know about drugs. I had seen drugs take many people out, members of my family, people on the street, people I went to school with were killed selling drugs, taking drugs, being involved with someone who sells them or takes them. It's just a downward spiral. And so I knew from the first song, "I Cram To Understand U," that I wanted to be able to impart that to young people, to my generation. And for this album, yes, I think for all it is that I addressed, it's really up to the listener. You know what I mean? There are Bibles everywhere, but does everybody pick them up? And those who pick it up, are they actually able to decipher the parables? Yes, there is something in there for everyone, but will everyone get it? I don't know. So I kind of feel the same way about musically and lyrically how we approached this record. There's something for everyone, but you got to be in an open state of mind in order to be able to receive it.

Sanni Brown 

You said you let the listener determine that. And I hear from artists that that's difficult. I see some artists get upset or get offended. Have you always been like that, where you just let the art speak for itself? Or is that something you've had to develop throughout your career?

MC Lyte 

No, I let the art speak for itself. I can't make you get it, you know? It's up to the listener. You either get it or — I can't make you (laughs), you know? I think it's great that there are some universities out there that really have taken a deep dive into hip-hop and lyricism, and their main goal is to decipher and break down every part of a song, which I think can be beneficial for those who enjoy that part of it. But some people are not — they're all for what's on the fascia. If that's the case, then they get what they get to please them. And others who are looking for more can be fed because there's food under the food.

Sanni Brown 

Right. Can you please give us insight into what hip-hop was like earlier in your career and the challenges that women had to face? What did that culture look like?

MC Lyte 

I think for the most part, and I can only really speak for me and my experience. A lot of the guys, they looked at me as their little sister, which was great — until you start making some kind of moves, and then you face we're all on a show, but the guys don't want to go on before me, even though the promoter has billed me high on the bill, they're like, "No, I think it's better if Lyte —" and they never tell me. They always go to the promoter, and then the promoter has to come back and tell management "so and so would like to go on after" or either they don't show up to the venue, which makes me go on, and then I go on, and then they go on after me (laughs). So whatever they have to do to not go on before me is really funny. But for the mainstay of it, it's been a wonderful experience as a woman. Honestly, if I weren't, I don't know that I'd be in hip-hop, because it's so many men and it's such a competition amongst them, even when they're friends. I think I saw some interview with Jay Z and he was saying, when DMX got on that stage, nobody wanted to go after him. All he had to do was grunt in the mic and the whole crowd would just go crazy. So it's so much competition for men in the business. It has been, and it still is. And so I think the lane was kind of open for me and what it was that I was bringing.

Sanni Brown 

What are you the most excited to see about women in rap, modern day women in rap? What are you the most excited to see?

MC Lyte 

Right now? I just love that there's so many, and they're so different from one another, you know? What I really want to convey is that just because mainstream locks on to one or two, that just shows you how limited they are in their thinking. We can say, "Oh yeah, I'm like this one and this one and that one and that one!" We have a plethora of women on the mic that we enjoy at this present moment. And so I just don't want the others to be deterred in thinking that you're not hitting your mark. You're hitting your mark. Do what you do, the best way that you do it, run your lane, because everybody's got a separate lane right now, which I think is really exciting.

Sanni Brown 

I think it's exciting. So the 1 of 1 tour, what type of vibes can we expect?

MC Lyte  

People just show up in your best 90s gear, we’re taking it back. I'm really excited and honored at this stage in my career to be able to say, "Let's hit the road and let people know what this record is about." Because it's easy to say "The record is done. We put it out. It's over." And I'm like no, it's not over. I hear so many times from people that my generation doesn't like to explore new music from the OG artists. And I'm like, "I don't know that if I believe that." They say, "Yeah, they want to put on their playlist, and when they're looking for MC Lyte they're looking for the stuff that they already know."And I tend to think that my fan has a bigger capacity than that, so let's get out there and let them know that it exists. And so it's been fun so far. We've hit everywhere from Philly, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, a whole lot of places in between. We just came from Canada with Toronto and Ottawa, on the list we've got Chicago and Michigan and Louisville, Kentucky and St. Louis. We've got a lot of places to hit, and I'm just excited that Minneapolis is on the list.

Sanni Brown 

I love that. I love that so much. What's been your most enjoyable experience on tour so far?

MC Lyte 

Oh, goodness, I enjoy period, the level of intimacy. You know, it's a smaller crowd. Most times when I'm performing, I'm with three or four acts. We're in bigger arenas. It could be anywhere from 10,000 to 30,000 people. But now we get to scale this down, and we're in city wineries that are like 300 people, and then we're in other spots where capacity is somewhere between 500 to 1,000 and so it just lends itself to me being able to show a side of myself that people rarely get to see in those big arenas.

Sanni Brown 

To listen to an artist that's been in the game go, "Nope, I want something more intimate" and to say that it's about the music, I'm really hoping that young people catch that. That you've done the 10,000, done the 30,000, and that you're working towards a more intimate crowd to really connect with people on a musical level.

MC Lyte 

I consider myself blessed because I'm one of those that can go big and I can go small. It's a lot of them that are big that can't go small. It would look to people as a failure. When in fact, Prince didn't care if he only had 10 people in his house performing.

Sanni Brown 

Oh, we know (laughs).

MC Lyte 

Exactly. If anybody knows, y'all know right?

Sanni Brown 

Yeah, it didn't matter (laughs).

MC Lyte 

And that wasn't just at Paisley Park. When he came to L.A., I remember him playing in places that only held 150 people. I saw him in New York City, where the place only held 75 people. So it's like, who are you as an artist? Are you ready to be exposed on another level? The crazy thing is, you can feel great in a house party with 500 people, because you can hide, but when there's only 50 people in the house, you're gonna be seen and you're gonna be heard, and you will leave yourself open to judgment. And so I like this level of intimacy because we get to talk.

Sanni Brown 

We are so excited to have you. And just again, thank you so much for taking time off to talk to us and talking to a woman in rap. I am so inspired by you. I'm so excited that you are coming to Minneapolis. And honestly, I can't wait to see you when you get here.

MC Lyte 

I look forward to meeting you and thank you for the platform. And thank you for the line of questions. I look forward to seeing the city. God bless you.

Sanni Brown  

God bless you too. Thank you, MC Lyte. Thank you so much.

MC Lyte 

You got it. Take care.

Sanni Brown 

Take care.

SYM1 stopped by to talk to Carbon Sound’s host Sanni about all things pop music.

Sanni Brown

Carbon Sound. I am so excited. I love having interviews. I love having them so much. In studio today is SYM1. And SYM1 is a Minneapolis-based hard dance, club, pop artist, producer, vocalist, and performer, as well as the co-owner of Freeze Pop Records, Carbon Sound family give it up for SYM1, yay! It's so cool to put a face to the songs that I've been putting into the show. That's so cool. Nice to meet you, wow!

SYM1 

It's great to meet you!

Sanni Brown

It's good for you guys to give your pitch speech, because I'm gonna give it from the fan stand perspective. So tell us who you are for those who have not met you and have not heard your music yet.

SYM1 

I feel like you summed it up perfectly, but one of the most cool ways that I've heard someone describe me before is an artist who makes irreverent dance music with a punk heart and a chronically online edge. And I was like, "that's me!" (Laughs)

Sanni Brown 

What did they mean by chronically online — that's so toxic. (Both laugh)

SYM1 

Well, that's me!

Sanni Brown

How do you incorporate that into music, into your sound? Because it's such a visual thing. And when I think of chronically online, I immediately think of argument. But that's not how your music sounds. Your music sounds free, like wild abandon. I feel like I'm about to go on a major shopping trip with my girls, and we about to spend like, $200 maybe $300 too much. That's how your music feels to me, like wild, free, girlish abandon.

SYM1 

I love that.

Sanni Brown

But they associate it with the toxicness of online. So help me understand! (Laughs)

SYM1 

Chronically online, I so resonate with being chronically online.

Sanni Brown

No judgments, no judgments. Me too. 

SYM1 

But not the angry parts of it. I think about this all the time, and I talk about it a lot, about how the internet, it wasn't such a toxic, angry space. It didn't always have that energy, but now it does. But it used to feel like — remember the golden era being online, and it just feeling like so exploratory and full of community and potential and discovery? It feels like that, it has that freedom, that wild abandon. And I feel like when I was growing up, I was very sheltered, so connecting with people online and playing video games was definitely —

Sanni Brown

Your window to the world?

SYM1 

Yes, so the sounds that I use, the references that I'll use, and the way that I perceive a lot of my life is also through that lens, so I think chronically online kind of comes from that.

Sanni Brown

I love that. Because I do think it's easy to just immediately think about the current state of the internet. And I was there during the golden days of the internet, when they were like, "this is a web page, and you want to look at who made the web page." (Laughs) And you're right, there was this element of — I think the program was called Internet Explorer. I don't know if it's still called that anymore, but that idea of exploration, and I grasped that from that song, "I Don't Have To Pay For This." I'm like, girl tell me more. Why you don't gotta pay for it, sis? Like, tell me more.

SYM1 

I'm so glad you liked that one. (Laughs)

Sanni Brown

No, because I heard it and I was like, no, I see myself in the Jeep. I see the doors down, the sun is shining. I'm not paying for any of this, you're gonna make it happen. And I like that. There's a very energetic and freeness to that. Do you think that that is connected to your — you said you had a sheltered childhood. Do you think that's connected to it? Are you allowing your inner child to come out in your music?

SYM1 

I 100% am. All of my music is almost directly a trauma response and working through all of my childhood trauma.

Sanni Brown

No but music is so therapeutic like that. So what is the process of doing that? Because I'm in school for rap, and we have a class called rhymeocology, and it's basically showing you how to channel all these really deep, dark things, and how to transfer it into our lyrics. And that class, I struggle the most, and so here you have sounds like "I Don't Have To Pay For This." You've done this so eloquently. So what's your process of taking these things that you've been through and then channeling them into lyrics and into sound and into a whole vibe, really.

SYM1 

I wish it was a more intentional and focused process, but it's really not for me. Generally, I'm making a beat, and then I am singing in gibberish over it, and I find the words through the gibberish and whatever resonates, I pick it out. And I don't even realize how much my music and my lyrics connect with me and what I've been through until much later.

Sanni Brown

So you let the song speak to you. I say that because when I talk to artists, they say the song has to (speak to you). So wait, you are the co-owner of Freeze Pop Records. And before I go further, because I like pop music, but what I find is that I think the world likes to go, "If you're a Black artist, you go hip-hop, or you go R&B, or maybe blues, if they really respect you." And so when I hear pop, and I see Black artists making pop, oooh! So what is pop to you?

SYM1 

Oh my gosh, it's everything. It's like, my first love.

Sanni Brown

It really is! I feel like that's the genre of youth. I really do feel like that. And so I found a Wyclef album that was pop. I didn't think it was pop. And I see Beyoncé songs that are pop, and I thought they were R&B. So you said it's everything, but what do you mean? Can you elaborate that pop is everything?

SYM1 

Pop is popular music, but what I consider pop is music that has a hook to it, like it has a pop structure. So it's gonna have probably a verse, maybe a pre-chorus, then the chorus, and the chorus being the hook. I like my pop to be very hooky. I guess I would describe it as that.

Sanni Brown

And every artist, hey. If Van Gogh can eat paint chips —

SYM1 

I feel like there are definitely different sonic qualities, like different sounds in pop music, in R&B, in rap music, in hip-hop, that you'll be like, "Ok, this is more solidly now that genre, because they're using these songs." Like you hear certain sounds, like quick hi hats, it's probably gonna be in a hip-hop song.

Sanni Brown

As a music consumer, we're just taking in you guys as vibes. We're not understanding the breakdown of things. And I'm nerdy. I like to see the bricks of how are you creating these vibes. But I want you to keep your juice to yourself.

SYM1 

Oh they could never repeat. (Laughs)

Sanni Brown

Very Prince! Okay, we're gonna pause right there. You got some events coming up, and so we're going to take a break right now, and I'm going to play some music, and then we're going to get back to SYM1, Minneapolis, based hard dance, club, pop artist, producer, vocalist, performer, as well as co-owner of Freeze Pop Records in the building. We will be right back. Do not go any place. We are in Music Class.

Sanni Brown

We are back with SYM1 on The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. We're in Music Class, and in music class, y'all know I like to break stuff down brick by brick. And so SYM1 has let us know — well, basically, I let y'all know and she agreed. She's the co-owner of Freeze Pop Records, Minneapolis based, hard dance, club, pop artist, producer, vocalist and performer. You've got some events coming up. Can you tell us about that? And what's the purpose of it?

SYM1 

So the next event that's coming up is on March 22 and that is the Hyper Pop Dance Party, it's now presented by Freeze Pop Records and Internet Kids are co-sponsoring it. We're co-sponsoring it together. I admire them so much, and they're some of my friends. I'm just so excited, and I'm bringing out an artist that actually is from New York City that is featured on my latest single, and her name is Moist Breezy, so she's coming through. We're gonna do the song together. She's gonna do a set. I'm gonna do a set. It's gonna be incredible.

Sanni Brown

And it's a dance party. What is the mindset behind making a show a dance party? What's that about? I mean, excuse me, I'm a dancer I love it, I know, but —

SYM1 

Sometimes you gotta tell them, "We're dancing, ok??" Because people, I think people forget.

Sanni Brown

You know what? You have a very good point, because I've performed for Minnesota audiences and what Minnesota audiences do, baby, they gonna give you their undivided attention. And so they don't always necessarily sway or dance or move. And I have been at shows and be like, "It's ok to dance!" And people start dancing. So that's why I see that here a lot. It's ok to dance Minnesota! Because Minnesota is just gonna sit there and watch.

SYM1  

They will sit and stare (laughs) —

Sanni Brown

Yes boo! I need somebody to come in and explain this to me. But it's undivided attention, it really is, and you got to respect it, I think once you actually understand what's going on. What can people expect? So you just said we're gonna dance, you just said Moist Breezy is gonna be performing, is Moist Breezy a DJ?

SYM1 

She is a DJ, but also a producer, vocalist, singer, performer, and she is a Eurodance artist, but she will be doing a live performance. Internet Kids will DJ, Evil Sound Guy is the DJ from Internet Kids, and he will be DJing. There will be CRT TVs stacked on top of each other, all playing glitchy things from early internet days and anime type stuff. The crowd will be dressed up in —

Sanni Brown

So you gotta dress up to go here?

SYM1 

You don't have to, but you'll stand out if you don't. It's like a rave at an anime convention, not a rave in an underground techno way.

Sanni Brown

Wow, I like that. I've never been to a rave — I have young people around me telling me what it is, because the raves that I had back in the 90s — not had but that they told us about, sounds scary. This sounds amazing. It sounds safe and fun and colorful. So is there anything else that (Freeze) Pop Records is doing that we need to be made aware of?

SYM1 

We are going to be having future events that are surrounded more so around community networking for pop artists.

Sanni Brown

So what's the deal with your — it's an artist led, community led label. Oh my gosh, we cannot end the show without this. Please let me know what that is about. Artist led, community led label. That's like foreign words to me. I've never heard of that before. What is that about?

SYM1  

It is so rare to have artistic development these days, anywhere. You have to normally go to New York or LA to get anything of the sort. And we want to bring that here and show Minnesotans, especially in the pop realm, that we have that community here, we have that talent here, and that we can do this together. We have lost a lot of our staples, as far as music education, music development has gone. McNally Smith, IPR are now no longer, and we would like to see just more programming and artistic development and opportunities for community, to get together, to grow together, because that's what it takes to have a good scene. So that's what we want.

Sanni Brown

I asked and you gave. You dropped so many nuggets in there. I was just talking to my fiancé about how I grew up with instruments in the classroom. One of the hours of my show is called music class, because music class was so influential to me. So that's why it's overwhelming, because this is an educational thing. And then you're pouring into the scene. Would you say that artist development is almost music education in a way?

SYM1 

Absolutely, yeah.

Sanni Brown

Do you feel like maybe that's why that's missing? People kind of feel like they can do without it?

SYM1 

No one's teaching it. They don't even know that they need it, because no one's teaching it. Artistic development, it takes the music side and the business side, the performance side, it takes all of those things. So when people just think music education, it's like, "Ok, learn music theory, learn how to read music, learn how to play an instrument." No, there's so much more.

Sanni Brown

We were in class late last night, and we're talking rhythm. It's called rhythm and style. Again, this type of stuff was in the schools when I was a young girl. And you're right. Rapping, people think you just get up on the mic and talk. No, baby. You need to know rhythms. When we hear people, old school rap is "boom bap, boom bap, boom." Now it's like "dadada dadada dadadada" (triplets) and if you do not understand that as an artist, your trick bag is gonna be really skinny. And so I'm so glad that you are using this work, not only to help actual artists, but to teach people the importance of the artist development. Wow, I'm sorry I had just had to walk through that again, everything that you just said. What inspired you to do that? Was there something that happened that you were like, "No, this needs to do this."

SYM1 

My own experiences of trying to find resources in Minnesota and within my community, and just not finding what I wanted to see, and finding other like-minded people who also feel that way, and then us getting together, doing events together, and then finally, being like, "You know what? Why don't we just do the dang thing?" Especially throughout the pandemic, we needed it more than ever then.

Sanni Brown

I'm hoping somebody that's listening is paying attention to how the Minnesota music scene evolved. Because I hear a lot of artists come in here and be like, "Oh, we started that during the pandemic" and now it's a full-fledged business that's serving artists. So SYM1, where can we find you? I'm stalking you, but where can we find you? So we can hear more music dropping.

SYM1 

Anywhere you listen to music, I'll be there. My website is no1butsym1.com, my social media is also no1butsym1.

Sanni Brown

And March 22 is the Hyper Pop Dance Party 6. It's SYM1's birthday bash?? Does that make you an Aries?

SYM1 

I'm an Aries! (Laughs)

Sanni Brown

Oh yeah! Ok ok, see, I'm a Leo. That’s that fire! Birthday bash and release party with Moist Breezy and DJ sets. I love it. I love your music. I love what you're doing. I love the shopping day girl vibes, okay, yes boo! I can't wait to hear more music from you. And thank you for what you're doing for the Minnesota music scene.

SYM1 

Thank you.

Sanni Brown 

SYM1, everybody. Hey, don't go any place. I still got music for you. We are in Music Class. Hey, so don't go no place. It's The Message, Carbon Sound, Music for Life.

David Smith sat down with Carbon Sound’s host Sanni and talked about his journey in music production and arranging for live shows, his new band (@0308band) that’s bringing a modern feel to the Minneapolis Sound, and more.

Sanni Brown 

It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life, Sanni here. We got a new interview, and I got questions! Minnesota musician, producer, programmer, arranger and more. Hold on. Let me run the receipts. Arranged, programmed Shaboozey's BET Award performances, played and programmed keydrums for Kehlani's WNBA All Star performance, programmed and arranged an outro for Latto's high-rated performance at the Billboard Music Awards. And baby, we would be here 30 more minutes if I kept talking about the receipts. Carbon Sound family, welcome David Smith, yay!

David Smith 

Thanks it's an honor to be here.

Sanni Brown 

It's an honor for you to be here, wow! It's almost three years we've been on the map, and so we got folks like this stepping in here? See y'all coming in and y'all do the things you're doing, and y'all always like this, but I love it. That's one of the things I love about Minnesota music scene, is you guys are heat, but you so laid back and humble and calm (laughs).

David Smith 

(Laughs) Yeah, I guess so.

Sanni Brown 

You just chill. And I can appreciate it, but it's just weird (laughs). I'll ask you this, do you see a lot of humility in people, in what you do?

David Smith 

Like others in the area?

Sanni Brown 

And people who are really good, who are like you. You have an amazing resume, like this is an art person's dream. This is to me, a musician's dream. So in your field of work, and what you've seen, do you see a lot of humility, people that are doing big things, but are just humble?

David Smith 

Yeah I would say so. One person that definitely comes to mind is Jovonta Patton, the gospel singer. He definitely is really humble in what he does. He's a very grateful person, very humble. And even though he's done so many really cool things, when you interact with him, it's just like talking to a friend or family member. So I think people like him are what helps keep things going and helps keep all of us humble.

Sanni Brown 

That's something that sticks out, like you've done all this immense stuff and you're just normal (laughs). So let's jump into the questions, what are some of your earliest experiences with music.

David Smith 

I think I've been involved with music as long as I can remember. There's even a little picture of me somewhere, of me on one of those little baby pianos. But I actually originally started out with the love for drums. So my older brother was a drumming prodigy growing up. And so being the three- or four-year-old that I was, I was like, "Hey, I want to play drums." And so I learned at some point, but I was so young I don't even actually remember learning the drums.

Sanni Brown 

But you just know the drums is your thing?

David Smith 

Yeah.

Sanni Brown 

That's crazy, so you just took to it?

David Smith 

Right. Yep, exactly.

Sanni Brown 

Wow. So then we go from drums to — what happens after that?

David Smith 

The piano.

Sanni Brown 

That's a jump. My sibling did drums. I did piano.

David Smith 

Yeah, we had a piano at home, and my mom had taken a college class years ago, and she was able to teach me the little that she remembered from that. And I was able to just take that and kind of create my own world with it.

Sanni Brown 

So what were you doing after that? You just going around the house, beating on stuff, playing keyboard? (Laughs)

David Smith 

Yeah, pretty much. We had drums in the basement, we had a piano upstairs. It was really cool to grow up in that type of environment where playing music was encouraged. And so I eventually took some lessons and stuff.

Sanni Brown 

So I just jumped right in like everybody knows exactly who you are. Why don't I let you tell us who you are? For those who are unfamiliar with you, who don't know how you linked in to all of these amazing acts and all of the work that you do, tell us who you are.

David Smith 

Yeah so, if you didn't know already (both laugh), my name is David Smith. I'm a musician, and I grew up playing in church, so that's my home. I still play at the same church that I grew up at. My dad is the pastor of that church, Christ Temple in Roseville. And since then, I've learned more instruments than just piano and drums. I also picked up the bass while I was in high school, and I also played the trumpet as well, and also the organ too. That's my favorite instrument. Of course, I grew up in church playing the organ.

Sanni Brown 

Are you silly with the organ? I noticed people who play the organ, they have a sense of humor, the timing.

David Smith 

I mean, maybe. (Both laugh)

Sanni Brown 

Maybe that's just the church I went to (laughs). So basically you grew up playing instruments in the church. So then what happens after you grow up? Now you have all this musical knowledge. What do you do?

David Smith 

I eventually started getting into production and live show programming when I was in high school. I started out just putting shows together and stuff for a talent show, and also just making beats and stuff on my computer when I was in high school. So that was like my beginners phase, but I had no idea what that would eventually turn into. I was just like, I'm just doing this for fun, just for the love of it. I see a lot of other people on YouTube making live arrangement covers to songs and stuff. I was like, hey, you know what? I'm really inspired by that. I want to try it too. So that's how I kind of got into the live production scene and whatnot.

Sanni Brown 

So before we get into your grown man stuff, I want to pause right here. I want to put on some music for life, and then I really want you to touch on all of this arrangement that you've done, because this is like the building blocks to all of the vibes (laughs). And I want everybody to understand that this is the meat. And so we're gonna get into that coming up next. I got some music for life. This is Music Class I am in with David Smith, Minnesota musician, producer, programmer, arranger, and so much more. And the more you're gonna have to stick around to find out. It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. Don't go anyplace.

Sanni Brown

It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. We are in Music Class. Sanni here with David Smith, Minnesota musician, producer, programmer, and arranger. For those of you who don't know, the vibes that you guys like, this is the building blocks. This is what needs to happen before we get into the vibe part. So David Smith, so far you've talked about you grew up in the church. You started out with drums, keyboards, you took right to it. You're doing live shows in high school, and now you are an adult. What do you do with all of this live show experience? Where do you go from there?

David Smith 

Yeah, I think after that — well, because then the pandemic happens, right? I graduated high school in 2019, and then my my freshman year was cut short, or cut to online, and so I was just at home, and it was summer, so I'd find stuff to do and I had a friend of mine from Canada, and we worked on just making a lot of live arrangements and live programming together. So that's how I kind of got into just doing it a lot more. And so eventually, after about a year of doing that, the opportunity came up for me to be able to showcase some of my live arrangements to somebody that's arranged and programmed for for some artists with notability. So I was able to play one of my arrangements, they were like, "Hey, let's work" and after a couple months or so, that turned into me eventually doing my first live arrangement for SZA.

Sanni Brown

Wow. Now pause before you go any further, what does arrangement mean?

David Smith 

So a live arrangement is basically taking a piece of music from an artist and —

Sanni Brown

Then changing it to making it sound good live??

David Smith 

Exactly.

Sanni Brown

Woah, you gonna have to break that down. I mean, don't give us all your tea, because you need it for what you do but —

David Smith 

Oh no, I could give a general overview.

Sanni Brown

Oh my gosh. How do you do that?

David Smith 

So basically what will happen is somebody from the artist camp or their music director, what they'll do is they'll send me what are called stems — stems or multi-tracks. So stems are basically all the individual pieces of the song, like the drums, the vocals, you know, every single thing so that way I can use my creativity to do what's needed for the live performance. So if there's a section where maybe we need to take out the drums or something, then I have the flexibility to be able to do that with stems. But now sometimes, there's not always a time where you're able to get the stems from somebody. And so now there's a software and a company that I partnered with called Moises AI, and basically what they do is they're able to separate the stems for you. So that way, if there's a situation where somebody's not able to send the stems, AI is able to separate out the bass, the drums, everything else that you might be able to need.

Sanni Brown

Okay, that is legit the first good use of AI that I've heard since I've heard of AI. This is the type of stuff I need. I'm sorry that's mind blowing. Because I've always wondered, how do they get it to sound like — who's all the people you've done this for?

David Smith 

Yeah so one of them, as you mentioned earlier, was Shaboozey. That one was done along with Dennard Watson from Philly and Baltimore. And I also did that one for SZA. And she used that one originally for like an online performance back in 2021, but she eventually used that arrangement of "Gardens" for her tour, and it's also on the the Apple Music live album as well. And then another one was GIVĒON. I was able to do the intro for his tour back in like 2022, and then another one was for this big Indian artist named Karan Aujla. He's based out of Toronto, at least most of his camp is, and that actually led to me eventually being able to go on tour with him, and I ended up in the UK at The O2 Arena.

Sanni Brown

Wow! My goodness. My mind is blown, because I think when people think about working in the music business, I think they always think about the front facing stuff, the performing, and this is just this whole world back here.

David Smith  

Yeah, a lot of people don't know about this.

Sanni Brown

So who's been your favorite show to arrange?

David Smith 

Honestly, it was probably the Karan Aujla stuff that I got to do, because it was really fun. His music is very — it's like you get a different party with each song, a different message with each song, and it was also a unique challenge, because it's all in a different language. The funny part is, when I'm listening to music, I'm barely paying attention to the lyrics anyway (laughs). I'm hearing everything, like every single drum —

Sanni Brown

Isn't it easier when you're familiar with the song, though?

David Smith 

I mean yeah, but also, I feel like I can tell where the important moments are based on how he's singing.

Sanni Brown

Is that musician instinct?

David Smith 

Yeah, you could say that.

Sanni Brown

Okay wow! I'm nerdy, this is so cool (both laugh). What are some of the highlights of being a musician and being in this position helping other musicians?

David Smith 

Yeah I think one thing I enjoy doing is being able to put people on, especially that are from here. So whenever I see an up and coming musician that's doing really well, and I see that they're qualified enough to do something, I'll start instantly recommending them to other people. I'll be like, "Oh, hey. You need this? Oh yeah, grab this person right here. They're definitely ready for the job."

Sanni Brown

Why do you like that?

David Smith 

Well, because somebody did it for me. That's how I ended up getting the SZA thing. That's how I've gotten a whole lot of opportunities. One person I specifically want to credit is is Arthur L.A. Buckner. L.A. has been a mentor to me ever since I was in high school, and he's definitely helped propel me to the point to where I am in the in the local music scene, for sure. Because he's been that guy advocating for me behind closed doors like, "Hey, this guy is really dope. You should hire him for this, this and that." I thought about this the other day, if it wasn't for him, I wouldn't have gotten the opportunity with SZA, because the artist's song that I showed to the guy that put me onto that gig, was recommended to me by L.A. So it was like, L.A. recommended me to the other artists, and then I took that arrangement from that collaboration, to the person that was connected with the SZA camp.

David and L.A performing together

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Sanni Brown

Artists on the scene, do you see that? That connection? I'm hoping that when artists are listening, because we've had other artists come in and say their network and how they're connected, and how much of it is putting each other on, making suggestions. People who want to see you win help you win.

David Smith 

Exactly.

Sanni Brown

Wow, I'm still stuck on you back there with all that juice. Because since I was little, and you see the shows, and you're like, who decides? How do you decide when to throw a "dun dun"? How do you make the decision? Do they decide that and then there's like a skeleton outline?

David Smith 

Yeah sometimes the artist will have an idea in mind, but usually, it's something that takes lots of experience and time to really be able to do. Because sometimes I'll look at some of my earlier work, I'm like, "Oh, man, I wouldn't have put this thing there or that thing there." Because a lot of it you just kind of learn from just listening to different live arrangements and people that have done TV shows, Super Bowls, and whatever, over time. So a lot of that, you know, like I was saying, just comes from from listening and and working on it, because it doesn't come to you quickly. There's still times where you can come up with something super dope, and the artist is like, "You know what? I don't want all of this here. I just want it to sound like the record." So it all kind of depends on the artist preference too. It hasn't happened to me a bunch, but to some peers of mine, there's been times where they will come up with this really dope arrangement or something, and the artist will be like, "You know what? I think I want to scale it back a little bit." And they have to scale it back. At the end of the day, it's like the artist is your boss, and you gotta make them happy.

Sanni Brown

What's been the most eye opening thing about what you do?

David Smith 

I think the most eye opening thing about what I do is how it is able to open up opportunities in other areas, outside of just arranging. So, as I gave an example earlier, after I arranged the set for Karan Aujla, they eventually invited me back to play keys for their UK run when their main keyboardist was out because he had a baby on the way. I didn't have to audition or anything, like no rehearsals.

Sanni Brown 

I was gonna say, your audition was when they originally called you. I've learned that. I'm giving free game right now. I treat every gig like the audition for my next potential gig. And it sounds like you passed the test on that one (both laugh). So young folks, if you in entertainment, every gig that you get and you secure, that is your audition for the next gig, because people are seeing you. And I love hearing stories about people taking advantage of a gig, and it leading from one thing to the next. Is there any wisdom or advice that you can give people who are maybe a little bit earlier in their career than you are, music wise?

David Smith 

Yeah, especially for people here, build a client base outside of just people from Minnesota. Because I feel like I've been pretty successful with that, also partly because of the pandemic. So it's just like, I couldn't only work with people that were here, because then there's only so many people you can work with. So I spent that time just slowly connecting with different people over social media and different parts all over the world. So work with people outside of just here, because then that also helps you get respect from people that are from here because I feel like a lot of people from here won't respect you as much if you're only doing stuff here. But if they hear "Oh, hey, they're doing stuff in the UK. They're doing stuff all over here. Oh, people are playing to your tracks all over the world, what?" So I feel like that has helped me gain a little bit of notability here, because I've been able to reach great heights outside of just the Minnesota area.

Sanni Brown 

I had to go to school in St Louis to come back here (laughs). So what's next? Man, you sound like you got a really exciting career. What's next? Are you working on anything? Obviously you working with these big folks, you gotta be quiet. Are you working on anything for yourself?

David Smith  

Yeah, I actually just announced a new band of mine called 0308.

Sanni Brown 

Tell me what's that about? What is the number, the significance of that?

David Smith 

When I was growing up, a lot of my usernames just had 0308, because that's my birthday. So I was just like, you know what, that'd be a cool band name just to have that. But yeah, it's gonna be a lot of funk fusion. I really want to bring back the Minneapolis sound.

Sanni Brown 

I read that! A modern Minneapolis sound you're looking for. So what? How would you describe the current Minneapolis sound? And then how would you describe, what you trying to do?

David Smith 

The current Minneapolis sound (or more notable one), that's like Prince Jimmy Jam, The Time, Mint Condition. So like all of that, where it sounds really lively, very synth heavy, very funky, fast pace. I'm trying to figure out a way to bring that back in today.

Pillars of the Minneapolis Sound

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Sanni Brown 

I like that, yeah! Well, I'ma support you. I honestly, until I started working in radio, I didn't know what the Minneapolis sound was. It was just music that I liked. I didn't know it was an actual category. And so yes, I want to support that. Any effort that you have, I want to support that. So where can we find you? How can we keep up with you?

David Smith 

Yeah, you can follow me on any platform, @dsmithprod, that's also my website, dsmithprod.com, and just tune in for more updates. Who knows, maybe I'll be on another tour or something at some point.

Sanni Brown 

Maybe (both laugh). If y'all was looking at this resume right here, you'd be a little insulted with the maybe, okay, that maybe is doing a lot of heavy lifting. Thank you, David Smith, for coming in and taking time out to share your illustrious resume and your awesome, dope background. Thank you for coming in today.

David Smith 

Thanks, no problem. It was an honor to be here. I've been following the platform for a while. I was like, "Man, I would love to be on there at some point." So when I got the invite, I was like, oh, yeah, definitely.

Sanni Brown 

If we ever start doing live performances or something like that, would you be open to doing something like that?

David Smith 

Oh, definitely.

Sanni Brown  

Oh my goodness! Okay. Back in the day, they said on wax. We got this on — it's digital now (laughs), but thank you again.

David Smith 

Yeah, thank you!

Sanni Brown 

It is The Message Carbon Sound Music for Life.

Inayah from SoulFlower stopped by to talk to Carbon Sound's host Sanni about how SoulFlower came together, the band's busy February, and more.

Sanni Brown 

It is The Message, Carbon Sound Music for life, Sanni here in Music Class. And as I promised all week, I got in the studio SoulFlower. I am new to SoulFlower. So this intro is for everybody, including SoulFlower, or Inayah from SoulFlower, is in with us today. And Inayah is from the Twin Cities band SoulFlower that will be opening up for Dua Saleh at the Fine Line on Sunday, February 16. Remember I mentioned that to y'all at the beginning of the month? So in studio, Inayah from SoulFlower, yay!

Inayah 

Thank you for having me!

Sanni Brown 

Of course! Thank you for being available.

Inayah 

I'm so sad the rest of my band couldn't be here, but —

Sanni Brown 

Are they working? I know bands work four different jobs.

Inayah 

Yeah, Zeke's actually getting a tooth surgery.

Sanni Brown 

Oh no, not that kind of work! Well, welcome. We'll keep them in our spirit, because you gonna be answering some questions on behalf of them anyway (laughs). So welcome to Carbon Sound Studios. First of all, I'm a super fan. The song that we have is "Passion," that we've been playing, and I feel like it takes me back to when I was a little girl on a Saturday morning, and we're getting up and we're going to the corner store to get some candy or something. It's just such a carefree, fun, lighthearted song. And so before we get into how you made that, how did SoulFlower come to be? Because I thought you were just a one person thing, and you're a band. So put us on, how did SoulFlower come to be?

Inayah 

SoulFlower came to be from a series of jams and shows and exploring with other artists in the Twin Cities. I've been making music by myself for a while and playing the bass and writing songs, and then I got the chance to play in a band for the first time. Super low key, was in an apartment.

Sanni Brown 

When you say played, you mean like an instrument or sing?

Inayah 

So I was playing bass and I was singing. And then playing with other people at the same time. At the time when it was feeling really fresh, it was super gut wrenching, in the sense of, like, "I've always wanted to do this, and now I'm doing it." And it's not that big or unreachable or unattainable as I maybe thought it was. I didn't need to know my bass for like, 8, 10 years to finally sit in with people or whatever.

Sanni Brown 

So you didn't know how to play — you didn't play bass that long?

Inayah 

I picked it up in high school. I wasn't very consistent with it. And 2022, 2023 is when I really started to play it more, and play it every day, and write more songs with it.

Sanni Brown 

Of all instruments, why bass? I am flabbergasted by people that play bass.

Inayah 

I would love to ask my high school self. I don't know, I was just drawn to it, just magnetic. I don't know, I just was pulled towards the bass. And writing songs with a bass, I wouldn't say it's unconventional, but it's only a few people who will write a song to a bass line.

Sanni Brown 

Yes! I totally understand. So you're playing bass, you're kind of being introduced to it, kind of feeling it out, and then what happens after that? Are you getting noticed, or what's happening?

Inayah 

The way that it has just flowed for the past couple years has been — I don't want to say effortless, because there's been a lot of work put in, and all that stuff.

Sanni Brown 

Would you say authentic?

Inayah 

Authentic and like a flow to it. Each moment leads to another moment, leads to another opportunity. And the things that I'm controlling is myself and my voice and my expression, and from me expressing myself, I'm connecting with other people who love to express themselves or have whatever connection to expressing themselves that they do. So how it came to be as a band is just meeting folks who supported me. That makes me feel, actually, a little bit emotional now, because it really was just people who just cared for me and what I was doing. And when I sung with people, or played bass or whatever, there was a connection there, and people are just lovely, I don't know. Just showed love and wanted to continue to help me and see me share my music. So I'm grateful to all my friends and the people who have walked with me to where I am now on this musical journey, and my band now I met through The Cherry Pit, from different jams and these shows that we would put on. And hitting up Matt, hitting up Freakwhensee, like, "Yo!" I didn't know him at the time, but I saw him on Instagram, and saw he was a guitarist, and I hit him up. I was like, "Yo, you should come to this jam, you should come to this show.” And he did. And from then on, it was like he was around. And then Matt, I'm gonna call him Matt, his his stage name is Freakwhensee. This is one of my guitarists of the band. And Matt knew Zeke, which is the drummer, and they've known each other for a couple years. Matt kind of had Zeke in the back of his mind, of a drummer that he knew, and really looked up to.

SoulFlower performing at Cherry Pit

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Sanni Brown 

So you told Matt, "Pull up to the function, I'm performing." And then Matt pulls up. You blow it out the spot. And then he says, "Hey, I know a drummer."

Inayah 

And this didn't all happen in the same day, but yes.

Sanni Brown 

Right. You use the word magnetic. And I love seeing the magnetism of groups in music, and I don't want to lose it.

Inayah 

So then, when we first formed was two guitarists, and it was Matt, and it was my good friend Eilif, who plays with The Dregs. And Eilif played with us for the first couple months, and then dropped out to focus on his own music. And then my friend Niko, who is a visual artist, who I started living with 2023, he introduced me to his friend, Victor.

Sanni Brown 

I love seeing the universe be like, "Come, and come!" and then you're just sitting there and this whole thing is just forming around you. This is The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. I am with Inayah from the band SoulFlower. If you ever listen to my show, I be playing out "Passion," and that's on both the streams, whether it's The Current or Carbon Sound. And so big fan here, we're gonna take a break, because we got into how you guys got together, and then I want to know the creative process, because after all that magic comes together, I want to know what y'all doing with it. So again, this is The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. Sanni here, your radio friend in with Inayah from local band, SoulFlower. Don't go any place. This is Music Class.

Sanni Brown 

We are back. It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. I'm so excited. I have Inayah from local band SoulFlower. I gotta slow down my thoughts. Okay, so if you missed it, we went over how SoulFlower came together, and how the universe has this magical juice that just pulled you together and form people around you. And you were doing music yourself, and then you jammed out, told a friend, and then a friend told a friend, a friend told a friend, and boom, we got SoulFlower. And so what are y'all doing with all that energy? Because I can hear it in "Passion." There is something very special about that song. If you have not listened to it, go listen to it. Or just keep listening to this show, because we gonna play it. So what is the creative process for you guys? What does that look like?

Inayah 

We rehearse two times a week on a continuous basis, not just for upcoming shows. I do all the songwriting, and then rehearsal, we really just try to hone in and listen and we jam a lot.

Sanni Brown 

I'm glad you said that, because when I was younger and I first started learning, I first started learning how to do keyboard, my music teacher would have me do jam outs. So what is that about? What does that look like? What does that sound like? What does that feel like?

Inayah 

It usually just starts when we're setting up our instruments and tuning up. If we've been working on stuff by ourselves, you know, sometimes Victor will start playing the most loveliest riff, or like the most loveliest tune on his guitar, and then Freakwhensee will jump right in with something that goes with it, but is rhythmically challenging it, and then Zeke hops in. Because Zeke is just literally a wizard, like, the coolest, the best on the drums. And then words and melodies kind of just come to me so when I think too much about what I want to say, or what I want the melody to be then it kind of like goes away.

Sanni Brown 

I have that as well. Can you talk to trusting yourself and just letting it come to you and trusting whatever comes to you?

Inayah 

It's not easy. I'm so thankful to have a space, and the space is built by like the people that's in it. So I'm grateful to have a band that I feel so comfortable to be vulnerable around. To be open to trying and saying vulnerable and different things.

Sanni Brown 

So there needs to be a level of vulnerability for you to be able to do that.

Inayah 

Amongst everybody, amongst the group.

Sanni Brown 

Do you feel like that was already established when you guys kind of pulled together, just off you guys knowing each other? Or is that established through you guys all coming together and creating together?

Inayah 

I think both. We're all very introspective people and kind and empathetic and compassionate. And I think since we respect each other so much and actually care about one another outside of just the music, it's so easy to feel each other and to lock in when we get to actually playing music. And the magic comes from just all of our different experiences with our instruments. Some of us went to school, or some of us started when we were really, really young. Some of us just started in the past three, four years, or whatever it may be. And most of us are self taught. So we're really just writing with that intuition because music is life and is innate in our bodies, in our being. So there's so many times where I'll do something and they'll have the music theory for it. But I didn't — I just liked what I heard and kept playing it.

Sanni Brown 

But you need that though! It's interesting because you need that. And it's interesting too that you said you guys are all coming from different musical backgrounds, but the one thing that connects you guys is you being human, and that innate ability to connect within yourself. What are you learning in this space among all of this universe juice?

Inayah 

As someone that is in the band and also manages the band, I'm learning a lot about being more open with where I'm at. If I'm stressed, or sometimes I like to put on a little front that everything is handled and everything is cool, which, yeah, it is, but at the same time I'm low key like, it's overwhelming. Sometimes a girl just wants to play her guitar and not answer emails (laughs). I just want to be in the flow and not the logical structure of it. And I'm learning a lot about balancing that. And they give me so much grace and love and support throughout that process. And that's been very lovely. And I'm also learning how to listen more.

Sanni Brown 

What kind of listen? There's different types of listen (laughs).

Inayah 

All around listen more —

Sanni Brown 

Because you are talking about intuition, that's a different type of listening versus your ears. That's why I ask.

Inayah 

I think listening to my gut and I'm speaking to listening to intuition, and I'm speaking to listening to you have drums going, you got a guitar going, then you got another guitar going. Then I'm singing over all of it, and then I'm trying to play the bass??

Sanni Brown 

Okay, because this is what the average music listener, that's what we thinking. Like, you're doing all that?? You blew me at the beginning of the interview, when you said you're singing and doing bass.

Inayah 

I'm just trying to do my best. Like there's not a lot of singers and bass players — there's a lot, and I just have deep respect, because they just do it with grace, and they do it with their own style. And that's too, what I'm learning is my style, because I feel like I haven't even been playing bass long enough to — like it's there, initially, of course, but I'm growing into it more. And that's what also gets me excited too, is like, we've only been playing for two years. I'm 22.

Sanni Brown 

Okay! Y'all fresh. So where can we see this? You guys got any upcoming shows?

Inayah 

We do! This February, we're a little bit booked and busy. Valentine's Day, you can bring yourself and your boo out to Zhora Darling, because we're gonna be playing with LASALLE and Vinny Franco and the Love Channel. So that's February 14. On the 16th, we're playing at Fine Line, opening up for Dua Saleh and XINA, which is just a beautiful, beautiful bill.

SoulFlower opening up for Dua Saleh at Fine Line

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Sanni Brown 

I know, that's an insane bill. I talked about it on the local show at the beginning of the month. I let everyone know SoulFlower gonna be in here.

Inayah 

And then we're headlining Icehouse, February 26 with LASALLE again, ChocVillah and GR3G The Poet. So it's gonna be a beautiful — hip hop, R&B, you know, whatever our genre of music is (laughs).

Sanni Brown 

But you said you're still discovering it, you're still finding it. For the music listener, I like watching an artist find themselves and develop themselves and being vulnerable enough to let humans be like, "Hey, we're going through it too." But you guys just give us beautiful music (laughs). It sound chaos when we do it. But I didn't ask this. How would you describe your sound? If people are coming to go see you, what kind of sound and vibe should they expect?

Inayah 

I'm gonna pull from just what I've heard from people, and what you should expect is just soothing music, but also it's energetic music at the same time. Like we're not gonna put you to sleep, we're definitely gonna make you ponder a little bit. We definitely try to bring a genuine flow to our sets, like not trying to make it too "you're the audience and we're the performers."

Sanni Brown 

It's like a community.

Inayah 

Yes, we're trying to bring how we play in rehearsal, we're trying to bring that comfortability on stage to make you feel like you're in that rehearsal space with us. It's intimate, but we're gonna make you dance. We're gonna make you sway. It's a great array of R&B and a little bit of a rock in there, and a little bit of soul, of course. And a lot of people say, like, psychedelia, or psychedelicness. I need to start writing notes, because everybody asks me this question, and every time they ask me, I'm like "uhhhh."

Sanni Brown 

If you guys were a box of cereal, how would you describe the taste?

Inayah 

Oh my gosh, that's such a good question. I think probably like, oh! Like Apple Jacks. Yes!

Sanni Brown 

There you go. Why Apple Jacks?

Inayah 

Because it has, like that fruity (laughs), but then the cinnamon with the spice.

Sanni Brown 

Okay, that's what I was gonna say. You got a little tang tang, I see! See, when I bring it to food (laughs). Well, Inayah, thank you so much for coming in, and for performing on February 14, Valentine's Day with LASALLE, with Vinny Franco and the Love Channel at Zhora Darling. February 16, SoulFlower and Xina opening for Dua Saleh at Fine Line and February 26 headlining at Icehouse with GR3G, LASALLE, and ChocVillah. Where can we find out about you?

Inayah 

You can find us on Instagram, @soulflower_music. You can find us on Facebook. You can also find our email list, through social media, or if you come to a show, I will just send it to you. And if you sign up for our email list, you'll get emails about all our shows and upcoming things.

Sanni Brown 

And hopefully next time we'll be able to get the whole band in. Hopefully no teeth issues. Tell that brother my heart is with him (laughs). Thank you, Inayah.

Inayah 

Thank you.

Sanni Brown 

We're gonna get back to the music. You are in Music Class on The Message on Carbon Sound Music for Life.

Derrick Stevens from The Current sat down with Carbon Sound’s host Sanni and looked back on 20 years of The Current, as well as his place in the Minnesota music community.

Sanni Brown 

It's The Message, Carbon Sound, Music for Life. Oh my goodness. This is a full circle moment for me. This is a full circle moment for our guest — well, I don't know. I don't want to be the one to say that, but in studio today, I have the production manager for The Current since it started in 2005 and the active participant in the birth of hip-hop and its emergence in the Twin Cities, we're gonna dig so deep into that, because that gets me so excited. Carbon Sound family, give it up for Derrick Stevens, yay!

Derrick Stevens 

What up, Sanni?

Sanni Brown 

First of all, thank you so much for even having time to be here, because I know they keep you booked and busy. I know that. So I just want to thank you for pulling up and and giving Carbon Sound some more credibility on the music scene, on the Minnesota music scene, because apparently you helped start that. So first of all, welcome.

Derrick Stevens 

Thank you so much. Appreciate you.

Sanni Brown 

It's the 20th anniversary of The Current. And so the reason why this is important is because The Current had to happen before Carbon Sound happened. And so you were there at the beginning, at the birth of The Current. What was that like? Because we're here, and we're streaming, and this is the next big thing, and The Current even has other streams, like Ritmofonica, and then we also had Purple Current. So what was that like, at the very beginning of all these different things that we have today?

Derrick Stevens 

It was challenging. We didn't know if it was gonna work. We felt it would work, because there was other stations in the past that were in the market that were doing something that we were trying to do. So we were trying to really bring local music attention. So when we first started The Current everything was about supporting local music.

Sanni Brown 

At the time was the landscape, not what was anybody giving local music any love?

Derrick Stevens 

Not really. I mean, there were a few local shows on different radio stations, but not to the point where they were like, really championing local music, like putting them in the mix along other artists. You know, they might have their own little local show, but throughout the week, people weren't hearing local music on the radio. So when The Current started, we made a point to say we're going to champion local music. And the first song that we played on The Current was Atmosphere's song called "Say Shh" which is a hip-hop tune by Minnesota hip-hop artists. So it just kind of showed the community what we were about and what we wanted to do with The Current.

Sanni Brown 

That's so interesting, because when I was working, I was a behavioral therapist, and I learned about Atmosphere through one of the families, and that was the song they were talking about. It's so insane, how connected and linked into the community you are. How did that happen? I know you said when you first started, we wanted to put on the local scene. Was it also a part of the goal to not just play the local scene, but be connected to it the way I feel The Current is now?

Derrick Stevens 

Absolutely. When we started doing in studio sessions, which is something that a lot of radio stations don't have the capacity to do, which is to bring a whole band in here, mic up the instruments, and pretty much just present a live studio recording of what just happened.

Sanni Brown 

I got to be honest, when I first came here that was really insane to me. Because I sat in on a few of the shows that you produced to watch you, and like you said, it's a full production of local art artists coming in and performing their stuff. So that was insane to me. I'd never seen anything like that in radio, like you said, yeah.

Derrick Stevens 

From the beginning, it was all about making artists feel like they had a home on radio. So The Current was really instrumental in doing that. And at the time, when I got the call to say that there was a position open for Minnesota Public Radio starting this new rock station —

Sanni Brown 

They reached out to you?

Derrick Stevens 

Actually, a young lady who used to work with me at KMOJ back in the day, she reached out to me because she saw the listing, and she was like, "they're looking for a production manager. You should apply." Because at the time, I had left radio alone. I started in radio in 1987 with KMOJ — actually, before that let me back up. In 1982, I started at North High School as a freshman, and I was in their magnet program, which was KBEM, which is now their Jazz88 station. So I started my career at North High School in KBEM, and then from there in 1984, at the age of 16, I got a job with Pete Rhodes.

Sanni Brown 

Wow, Black Music America!

Derrick Stevens 

Exactly, Black Music America. He started the Black Music Awards, and he started a radio station. It was actually a cable radio station, and it was CBLS. So in 1984 I started working for Pete in radio. So by the time I was 16, I was getting trained as a program director, as a music director, and also I was doing production. And back then, production was not like it is now, I had to cut tape. Please

Sanni Brown 

Please tell me what that was like. Young kids don't know, what is tape?

Derrick Stevens 

So tape is an analog source for recording music. So music would be recorded on physical film tape. And in order to edit that tape, you had to actually take a razor blade to it, you had to cut it, and then you get rid of what you don't want and splice it together. So yeah, we didn't have computers where you can do your digital editing. No, we had to do everything by hand.

Sanni Brown 

Wait a minute. You've been editing physical audio — that's a nerd moment y'all. Because I just get in and press the buttons and clickity click, you were physical tape.

Derrick Stevens 

Editing physical tape. That was part of the job.

Sanni Brown 

You're doing this at KMOJ, wow. Okay, so you've got all these internships. Someone from KMOJ contacts you and says, "hey, there's a job opening." You apply, boom, you get it.

Derrick Stevens

I apply. I get it. I start with The Current in 2005 —

Sanni Brown 

How old were you?

Derrick Stevens 

I was an OG then, I was 36 when I started at The Current. Before I started with The Current, I had almost 20 years in the radio business.

Sanni Brown 

So you were in the making for The Current.

Derrick Stevens 

Oh, definitely. Where was I at? We were talking about the transitional period from, like I said, starting at KBEM in high school, to then working at KMOJ after working at CBLS for a couple of years, I went to KMOJ in 1987 and did some on air stuff for KMOJ for probably two to three years, and while I was at KMOJ — and I'm sure you have a question in there about this, but I'm just trying to take it in chronological order. But while I was at KMOJ, I was contacted by a guy named Oliver Leiber. And Oliver Leiber happens to be a producer. I had never heard of him before, but when he called me, he was like, "Yeah, I'm Oliver Leiber. I'm a producer. I produced Paula Abdul's album, and we're gonna do a remix for one of Paula Abdul's songs. It's called "Opposites Attract" and it's gonna be this cartoon cat." So he calls me because I was on the air. He heard my break. And he called me, and he was like, "I love your voice." Because at the time, Dan Speak and I, Dan Speak, who is a DJ here in the Twin Cities. Dan Speak and I had a group called the Soul Purpose. So our music was being played on KMOJ, so initially I thought Oliver Leiber hit me up because he heard Soul Purpose. I was always thinking he heard the Soul Purpose and he was like, "Oh, I like that guy's voice, we're doing this Paula Abdul thing. I want to see if he's interested." But he actually hit me up because of the break I was doing. "89.9 KMOJ, it's Derrick Delite. Hey, how you doing?" So he heard that, and he was just like, "You got a great voice." And that's how that whole MC Skat Kat thing came to fruition.

Sanni Brown

Can you do a radio break real quick? First of all, hold on. This is The Message, Carbon Sound, Music for Life you are in music class. I'm hype. I know you can hear it in my voice. I am a radio brat, and so I'm sitting in the room with a radio vet and his name is Derrick Stevens, and he is going to give us a classic radio break for us. Can you do that please, Derrick? I'm the guest. I'm just sitting here talking about these apples that I be selling locally, and you the host.

Derrick Stevens 

OK well, if you need some local apples, you definitely want to hit up Sanni. She's the one with the local apples. But you're checking out Carbon Sound. This is Music for Life. This is an opportunity for local artists to get on the air, to showcase their talent, to show what they're made of. There's nobody like Sanni to do it. Nobody does it better than Sanni. Carbon Sound, Music for Life. We'll be right back.

Sanni Brown 

Yay! (Laughs) It's so cool, because I hear your talking voice in passing. And when I do hear your voice in production, it's like in production. So it's just cool to watch you do a radio break. I'm being nerdy. Okay, so I have a question for you, for those of you who do not know, Derrik is the reason I'm here, like he's one of the reasons I'm here. When I used to be at KMOJ overnights and you listened to my — I was sitting in for somebody during the day, and you listened in. Here's my question to you, if there's anybody that wants to be in radio and they want to hear that, what stuck out to you about what you heard in my voice or my break?

Derrick Stevens 

In your break, it was the freshness. And when I say the freshness, especially at small community stations, sometimes you get into the habit of everyone kind of doing their breaks the same way, using music beds to talk over the same way. So it kind of becomes uniform, and it's just what you expect. But I remember, you were filling in, it was in early afternoon, probably on a Saturday or something I want to say. And I'm driving, and when I heard your break, it was refreshing, because it didn't sound like everything else I was hearing on the radio, and you were talking about pop culture, and just the way you brought that whole break together, your personality, the laughter, you could tell you were having fun. You could tell you were smiling while you were talking, so it was just little things like that. I was just like, "Man, she's got that it factor. So I remember calling up KMOJ. I still had the hotline number, so I called up KMOJ, and I was like, "Hey, young lady, this is Derrick Delite. I used to work at KMOJ. I don't know if you know me or not, but I just want to let you know I think you are dynamite. You really got it. You're bringing something fresh to the radio. I appreciate you, thanks for being on the air. I'm enjoying listening to you." And I just wanted you to hear that from somebody that had radio experience, because I just felt you were on a path to do some things. And I wanted you to know that hey, some of us old school DJs, we got your back.

Sanni Brown 

And look at that, Derrick! And this is why I'm so hyped for you to be in here, because you literally just told me somebody was listening to your break, and what that led to. And so I wanted to go ahead and spin that around. And this is The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. You are in music class. I'm so hyped to be here. If you want to know about who initiated the hip-hop scene here in the Twin Cities, who helped start The Current, who helped put my career on. We have Derrick Stevens in studio. I know you're looking at me because I'm yelling right now, and see he'd be telling me not to do that, but I'm so excited. Don't go any place. We're going to continue this interview because I have some more questions about The Current and we just want to love on you while you're here, for helping us create these vibes, this platform. I mean, Carbon Sound is here because of the work that you did. So we're going to get back to this on The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. Do not go nowhere.

Sanni Brown 

It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. I have to show up as a professional here, because I have Derrick Stevens in the studio, radio vet, hip-hop vet, Twin Cities, Minnesota music scene vet, The Current vet, just credentialed, credible and not only that, but humble and willing to help out the next generation. Derrick Stevens, thank you so much again for being in studio.

Derrick Stevens 

Thank you. I don't know if I deserve that, that grand opening.

Sanni Brown 

See, that's what I'm saying, because all the ones with the juice talk like this, y'all. All the ones with all the juice. Okay, so if you just pulled up, Derrick Stevens just got into how he was doing a radio break at KMOJ and a producer called that worked with Paul Abdul, asked him to be on the remix — and go listen to that. Go listen to that, because Derrick is really rapping, okay. But you were MC Skat Kat, and from what I'm told, you've done some work with Quincy Jones as well. What's that about?

Derrick Stevens 

Actually, it was more of Quincy Jones's daughter who put together this recycling campaign back in the early '90s. It was called "Yakety Yak, Take It Back." It was all about recycling your garbage, before recycling became a big thing. They had to make it a big thing. So Quincy Jones's daughter kind of put that together. So that was when I met Quincy. Quincy and I started talking, and he told me that his name was Quincy Delight. And of course, my name is Derrick Delite, so that's kind of how we had a little connection. I had a chance to meet him, I had a chance to meet Ozzy Osbourne. Natalie Cole, B.B. King, Bette Midler, these are some of the people that was on that "Yakety Yak, Take It Back" video as well. So yeah, that was one of the things that came from doing the voice over work for MC Skat Kat.

Sanni Brown 

Did you do any more voiceover work after that?

Derrick Stevens 

Well, we did an MC Skat Kat album, and the first single, it was called "Skat Strut." It did really well on MTV, but radio was like, "we're not playing a cartoon cat. We're not going to take this thing serious." So radio never got behind the project, Paula Abdul did a cameo appearance in the video for "Skat Strut." Like I said, the video was number one on MTV for a couple of weeks or whatever. But radio never got behind the project, so it kind of fizzled out. You know, we were hoping that, after the success of "Opposites Attract" and MC Skat Kat, we can do a project with MC Skat Kat and bring in the Stray Mob. MC Skat Kat project was Romany Malco, I don't know if you know the name, but he's an actor. He played in several different movies. He was instrumental in the whole MC Skat Kat solo project, so he wrote a lot of songs for that. But, like I said, radio never really got behind the project, so it just kind of fizzled out. But yeah, because of the initial work with Paula Abdul and "Opposites Attract," that led to the "Yakety Yak, Take It Back" thing, it led to the MC Skat Kat solo project. So I was able to maneuver through, I was signed with Virgin Records at the time. Lenny Kravitz was signed there, I got a funny story of the first time I met Lenny Kravitz, him and his wife, at the time was Lisa Bonet, and they were walking through Virgin Records. I see these people with no shoes on their feet, bare feet, the kid too, Zoe, she was a little girl at the time. But they're all, you know, walking through barefoot. I'm like, "What the hell is going on here?" They was like, "Well, that's Lenny Kravitz, and that's Lisa Bonet." I recognized Lisa Bonet, but, yeah, I've seen some interesting things during the years.

Sanni Brown

What keeps you so humble? I'm only saying that because, I've ran into people who haven't done a fraction, or talked to a fraction of the people you've talked to, and they're so haughty and mean. I wanted to save this for on air, because I was gonna say this off air. I feel like you're unfolding in front of me. I feel like there's so much to you, and you never say nothing about it. What is that? (Laughs)

Derrick Stevens 

I've never been a dude to gloat on things that I've done —

Sanni Brown 

I understand don't gloat, but you're sitting on so much stuff! Why does it seem like people that have the juice —

Derrick Stevens 

And that's just it. If you have the juice, then you don't have to constantly squeeze it. You don't have to constantly squeeze it to get the juice on everybody else. I'm just a normal guy at heart. That's the thing. I'm simple. So it's not something where I'm just like, "Oh, these are some of the things that I've done. These are my accomplishments."

Sanni Brown 

I had to be in this position to meet this Derrick. Your humility is so refreshing. Your vibe matches who you are. I feel safe around you in the radio world, in the producer world, I know if anything I do gets into your hands, I know it's gonna sound good. And there's this credibility and this familiarity and just greatness, and then to just dig deep and to find out there's even more. There's so many layers to you, and you've given all of this juice to help The Current hit 20 years. How do you feel? How do you feel looking back? Do you feel fulfilled?

Derrick Stevens 

I definitely feel fulfilled. I feel proud of the work that we've done here at The Current. We've gone through some changes over the last few years, structuring, things of that nature. But one thing that I never questioned is the talent that's in this building. People are still optimistic about what The Current can do in the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years. And it's because of the people that have came before it, who put their blood, sweat and tears into making The Current what it is. So I feel proud of the work that we've accomplished over the last 20 years. I'm glad to see that we have a Latin stream. We have Black music that's streaming through The Current platforms, and it's stuff like that that shows we're not looking backwards, we're looking ahead. We're looking to the future. So by investing in some of these streams and some of this diverse programming, it's letting people know that we want to bring other folks into the fold. So having Carbon Sound on the air and having you with your personality, your big personality, even though sometimes I be like, "Yo" when I'm trying to edit, “you're screaming.” That's you. That's your personality. And that's the beautiful thing about who Sanni is.

Sanni Brown 

I'm worried they're not gonna let nobody famous come in here, because I'll be screaming too much (laughs). Derrick, I am so grateful for you. I am so grateful. Just a little story, Derrick was part of the team that helped hire me here. Derrick was part of the team, you helped select me. And I just remember you mentioning that, you mentioning that you heard me on the air, and knowing that not only did you help create this space, you helped create The Current, The Current is now creating other spaces for young people. Young people tell me all the time how much they love Carbon Sound. And I really hope you understand you are directly linked to that. You're directly linked to that by helping pick me, by coaching me behind the scenes, and by the work that you do for The Current, for artists, for musicians. So you are a gem. I am loving on you in public. We love you, Derrick Stevens, I love you behind the scenes here, because what you be doing, okay? Because you be having us sound good. And thank you for everything you've done for The Current the last 20 years, and all that you're going to do in the next 20. I really love you, Derrick, for real, from the bottom of my heart.

Derrick Stevens 

Thank you so much, Sanni. I appreciate you. Happy 20th anniversary to The Current, let's roll for 20 more, y'all.

Sanni Brown 

I heard that. Alright, we're going to get to the music. Is there anything you want to hear, Derrick? Anything?

Derrick Stevens 

I'm an East Coast kid. So I'm not going to tell you what artist I want to hear, but just give me something from the East Coast.

Sanni Brown 

Got you, absolutely. Thank you for stepping in again. Now I know you gotta go produce something (laughs).

Derrick Stevens 

I gotta go produce this lunch, I'm hungry (laughs).

Sanni Brown 

Thank you, Derrick, thank you so much.

Derrick Stevens 

Thank you.

Sanni Brown 

It is The Message, Carbon Sound, Music for Life. You are in music class we gonna throw on something to the East Coast, maybe the whole set. It's The Message, Carbon Sound, Music for Life.

Carbon Sound talked with Ricky from Water Wave about the origins of Water Wave, what's to come for the brand in 2025, and much more.

John Kueppers 

Hello! I am John from Carbon Sound. Usually you'll see our host Sanni in this seat, but today I have the honor and privilege of sitting down with Ricky from Water Wave. There's a decent amount I want to cover today, whether it's talking about the local scene, what Water Wave has been up to in 2024, what you guys hope to accomplish in 2025, but I think the place to start is who is Ricky and how is it hard to not say Ricky from Water Wave TV when we're talking about you?

Ricky 

Well, I'm Ricky. I don't know — who I am outside of Water Wave is kind of a lot of everything. I like sports, I like gambling, I like poker. I like investing in stocks, crypto. I got a wife, just got married, I have a kid on the way. Life's kind of crazy in my personal life, but the Water Wave side, we own the clothing store, we do the podcast, we throw concerts, kind of vlog, personality, funny comedian on the internet. Kind of trying to do a little bit everything, and that's been like a really upside, but also a downside, of just trying to figure out what we're doing.

John Kueppers 

And it's music and entertainment overall, kind of as this umbrella term for Water Wave TV, but it also has specific coverage of the Minnesota music scene.

Ricky 

Yeah that's how we started, and that's still our roots, for sure. Being based out of Minneapolis we'll always be able to know more about Minneapolis than anywhere else. So as we grow and try to expand our media company, we still want to always shed a light on what's going on in Minnesota, whether it's music or even just, references to things that are happening around the Twin Cities, or even anywhere in Minnesota.

John Kueppers 

And it seems like over the years, you guys have just done an increasingly better job of having these kind of niche references to Minnesota or have just kind of found your pocket within the Twin Cities sphere, but what were the origins of Water Wave? And how did you become familiar with the Twin Cities music scene?

Ricky 

Water Wave actually came to fruition, like the idea came in my head when we were in college in River Falls, Wisconsin. Everyone that's a part of Water Wave was from Minnesota, but I grew up in Mankato, went to River Falls for football and school, and then I met people that you may know, like Kelvino, Elliott and Tezzy Bandz, Hunter, Angel. There's a bunch of people that were involved that aren't as involved nowadays, but they're still obviously part of the family, and always will be. But that's where we all met. And I remember, I was in a business law class, and we were doing a project where it was like, record labels are supposed to sign artists. They split the class in half. And I'm always the type to doodle in my notebook or whatever. And I started writing down, making my own record label. And one of the things I wrote down was “Water Wave Records.” And I don't know — Water Wave popped in my head, because we were supposed to be always carrying water with us for the football team, like always have a gallon of water and stuff like that. So like, "water wave, water is the new wave" type of thing, like a mindset. And then I remember right after that class, I went to the computer lab because it had Photoshop and Illustrator on it, and I made the first logo. And then I go back to the dorms, like, "hey, I want to vlog people's studio sessions and go back to the Twin Cities and interview artists, and you guys all make music." I was vlogging at the time they made music, like Kelvino. And I was like, "you want to do this with me? Help me out with it?" And some of the other guys, like Elliott and Tez and Hunter, they were throwing the biggest parties in college at River Falls. So it's like, you got the party side, we got the camera side, they got the music side, we can just kind of start something. And it started off very unaware of the music scene, for sure. I didn't know anything about rap in Twin Cities at all when I first started. I don't know if you're familiar with Nate Infinity; he went to River Falls. He was the first person I ever interviewed, because he happened to go to my school, and he made music, and he was somewhere from Minnesota. I forget the exact city he's from. So it kind of started there, and then just taking trips from River Falls to Minneapolis, River Falls to Minneapolis. And then in the summer, Mankato to Minneapolis, St. Paul, whatever suburb people lived in. And that's kind of how I got my foot in the door. Is just taking the initiative to branch out and be like, "hey, I want to start this." And at the time I had 50-100 followers, there was really no upside to doing an interview with me. It was more of like, maybe I'm finding someone that's never done an interview before. But that's kind of how I got introduced to the music scene. And I learned very quick that I didn't know much when I posted a list of my favorite artists, and even looking back at it, that was like nothing compared to what I've learned.

John Kueppers 

Do you feel like you learned the most through going to shows, or was it through doing interviews and then finding people on social media? What was that process like?

Ricky 

I'd say the early days, I definitely thought shows was like the way to go to learn people, learn from artists, or learn who's popping and stuff. And it kind of was, because you go to some people's show, and if it's packed and people are actually excited to see this person perform, you're like, "oh, they have an actual fan base." And then there's also the side of it like, "oh, this person has a lot of love on social media." So it's like trying to find that medium of people that have love on social media and can show it for themselves in person. But I met a lot more people obviously on social media, it's more attainable. You can meet a million people a day on social media, versus having to go to a concert and spend time talking to people. But at the time, definitely networking, meeting people was the groundwork. Being in the clubs, being at the shows, taking pictures of people and giving them my business card. "Hey, follow me. I'll DM you the link." That was like how we got our first maybe 1,000 followers. Just being out, taking pictures of people, shooting free videos, just being outside, letting people know, "hey, I just started this" and whatnot. And one big thing too, is that you don't want to ask people for too much when you first meet them. I think a lot of people ruin opportunities when they meet someone, let's just say, even a younger artist that comes up to me and is like, "why haven't I got my interview yet??" Or "let me get an interview" before you even introduce your name and tell me what you do. So that was one thing I kind of always knew, like, I'm gonna just let people know what I do and who I am, and let them find me at some point. Like, I didn't press "I do this, I do that." To kind of go back, the shows and just being out was the best way to grow your brand and meet people. But social media is obviously — you can grow your brand overnight on social media. Can't ignore that part for sure.

John Kueppers 

And there was a lot of learning that came with that, and understanding of who you wanted to be as a brand. Was that a talk you needed to have with your team? Like you mentioned Kelvino and Elliott, was that something you guys had to sit down and be like, "okay, don't act like you own the place" things like that when you guys were first starting?

Ricky 

All of us are pretty humble, quiet guys. None of us were like, we're gonna have too many drinks and we're gonna be grabbing a guy's shoulder and explain to them why we're the hottest brand. So I think we probably had those conversations, but it was never really something that we had a meeting, like, "alright, we're gonna act like this. We're gonna do that." It kind of just came natural. But I do a lot more of the on camera, face to face, like people — they'll call me Water Wave rather than my name. So it's definitely, a big representation of how I act to people as well. Like, I could go on the internet and say one crazy thing right now, and the whole perception of Water Wave is going to change. Same with the other guys as well. As long as we're all on the same page, and we all can kind of give off each other's energy, it's been good so far.

John Kueppers 

Absolutely. And you guys started in 2018?

Ricky 

Yeah technically that's when we made our first Instagram post, and said, "hey, this is what Water Wave is." I made a YouTube video in college: "what is Water Wave?" And you can go back on YouTube scroll all the way down. It's the second video on our page, second from a music video I shot. And the mindset hasn't changed completely, but it's a lot different than it was back then, or from what the video says. It's like, "we're a platform that wants to help Minnesota artists grow." Kind of what I explained when I first started it. We never planned on opening a clothing store or having any of this other stuff we do. So it's changed a lot, but the core idea is still there.

John Kueppers 

We're reaching the end of this year, and I feel like what comes with that is looking back and then also looking ahead and thinking about goals and stuff. So I'm curious around 2018 what the goals were there, and what the goals feel like now?

Ricky 

So I'd say 2018 my biggest goal was just meeting people. Even all the way up until even COVID. I would say until after 2020 — we really started business when we got the store, because then we had a physical place, but that 2018 to 2020 time, I just wanted to meet as many people as possible. I wasn't from the Twin Cities at all, so just meeting the people and back then it was a lot of clothing designers and music artists obviously, but radio hosts, just like figuring out the culture out here. I didn't want to just come in and act like I knew everything. I still don't even want to act like I know everything, because I have my hands and feet in so many pots. But 2018-2020, meeting as many people as possible, doing content, being on camera, trying to be in people's face all the time, having the Water Wave logo as many places as possible. Going to concerts, putting stickers everywhere, giving everybody a sticker, giving everybody a business card. And now, from like then on, the store has been a big thing, because it's one way for us to quit our jobs and actually live off of Water Wave was opening the clothing store. And even from 2020 to 2023, this past year of the store has been way more organized. We kind of started without a true plan. We kind of were just like, "oh, this is a space. Oh, we got approved for the lease? Shoot, we got to put some clothes in here so we can open next month." None of us had any prior experience of buying and selling vintage, did a little bit of shoes in high school. The world — it changed really fast. And then it went from like, "okay, we have a space to do the interviews and the store." And then it was like, "well, the interview has gotta take place outside of store hours" because all the noises and stuff in the store. It's not built like this, where we have soundproof rooms every other corner. So the mindset went from everything media to everything store, with the media on the back burner. But going into 2025, we've delegated a lot of stuff we have employees to where like both can flourish at the same time is our plan.

John Kueppers 

That's amazing, and that's so cool to see that progression. How it just started as, "yeah, let me just go out and see people" now to the point where people are calling you Water Wave. How do you feel about that? Are you okay with being like, a name lost within the brand of Water Wave?

Ricky 

Yeah, definitely. I like it. Obviously, if you called me "yo Ricky, what's good?" Usually it's either "yo Water Wave!" or "you're Water Wave, right?" or it's "yo, your name's Ricky, right? You do the Water Wave stuff?" Either way, I take it as a compliment, or as an idea that you watch what I do, and I need people like that. If you come up to me like that, and as long as you're not on some like, "I need a interview bro" or like, "why haven't you interviewed me yet?" Then I'm gonna push you away and not want to talk to you. But if you come up and you're just like, "I like what you do, I appreciate what you do for the city" then I'm gonna have a conversation with you and appreciate you. Because if I don't appreciate you, then now you might stop watching my stuff, tell all your friends to stop, like, "oh, I met him one time, and he's an asshole" or whatever. That's not what I'm going for.

John Kueppers 

And it's important to know your community too and appreciate that. And speaking of appreciation, looking back on this year, what were some of the highlights for Water Wave?

Ricky 

It was an interesting year for the media side, because we didn't throw a concert all year until — we have a concert in December — December 29 at First Avenue, 7th St. Entry with Qmoe, bdifferent, and Mack OC as the main acts. So that's our first show of the year, and obviously our last show of the year, because it's like right at the end. Usually we're like a show every other month, type of group.

John Kueppers 

Yeah, was there a reason for that?

Ricky 

So we threw a clothing festival in the summer called Wave Fest. And that's going to be something we want to keep doing every year and try to travel with it from city to city. But that was a big focus. And I was like, "I don't want to worry about concerts until this is over." And then when that was over, it was just like a lot of other personal stuff was going on. You know, I found out I was having a kid, and then we were trying to figure out the store really well, trying to hire employees, trying to figure out the business side of things. There was a lot going on, and then we kind of realized, like, "dang, we haven't thrown a show yet." And luckily, we were still getting booked to open up for people. Like, we opened up for Rich The Kid, 24kGoldn, and then even some of our artists, like Qmoe, he hosts the clubs every weekend. We still had a lot of music opportunities. Kelvino opened up for Thouxanbanfauni this year too. So we had a lot of opportunities to still be in concerts, but we didn't throw one all year, and that was kind of weird to us and to me. Just like not being on that stage hosting a show, it just felt kind of weird. But it was still nice to be able to — like the Rich The Kid one was Mankato State homecoming, and that's where I grew up. So it was a full circle moment of they reached out to book us, and getting paid to go back and perform at the city you grew up in is really cool. We would have used to love these opportunities for free, and now we're getting paid for them. So it's kind of an eye opener year of this is how much our brand has grown, and this is how much we're worth. So going into 2025, how can we leverage all of our followers, all of our fans, all of our history, our resume, how do we actually leverage this to create a business? Because up until this point, it's really just been kind of having fun on the internet, growing a fan base. We haven't really had a true structured business, like a true schedule. Everything's just super "oh, what are you doing tonight? What are you doing tomorrow?" It's a lot on the fly. It's been a roller coaster.

John Kueppers 

Speaking of that, what were some of the more important lessons to learn along the way, knowing that you guys are really starting to get this handle on the business side of things? Was there a time where you learned lessons the hard way, or things felt too overwhelming? You guys were taking on a lot.

Ricky 

Some big lessons I've learned is even just how other people in the community act. You don't really think about it as maybe a lesson, but even just like learning what's important to spend your time on and what's not. I used to maybe make ends meet to make a good impression on someone, and waste a bunch of my time on them, or a bunch of my energy on them. And now I just realized I don't need to do that. Or just working too hard on certain things. I'd say some big lessons and learning in the clothing side has been traveling for some vintage events and stuff like that, and maybe sometimes it's like, "oh, this wasn't worth our time" and "we could have kept our store open" or "this was really worth our time, so we're definitely coming back." But I don't know, I think just realizing how important your personal time is and your personal energy is and not just giving that away for free too much. It has to really be worth your time.

John Kueppers 

What makes it worth the time?

Ricky 

I don't even know — it's more of like, what am I gonna get out of this? For example, I was at the Yung Gravy show with Waka Flocka and all them. I got invited by their team, so I got to be in the backstage room, and it was pretty cool. Soobviously, that's worth my time. But within that, now I have conversation with this person, this person, this person, that person, having drinks. Conversations start becoming, in my opinion, pointless and a waste of time. And it's like, I'm gonna sit here and talk to you for 30 minutes, I missed 30 minutes of the show. That's a lesson: filtering out certain people. "Do I really need to be talking to you right now?" or filtering out certain opportunities, "do I need to be taking all these random opportunities?" Or even shows, people have asked us all year, "you want to throw the show with us? You want to throw the show with us? And I obviously said no to all of them because we didn't throw a show. And it's just the idea of is it really worth my time and my effort in this show? Am I going to make a lot of money, or am I going to get a lot of fans off it, or am I going to do something good? And just having to figure that out, and I feel like the best way — I don't know how to explain it, but as people get older in this scene, and if you're really out there, you'll understand what I'm saying when you kind of get to it. The people you thought were important are not important. The people that you wanted to impress don't matter. That's the type of lessons that I've really learned this year. When we first started, I'm like, "oh my God, I need to work with him, this big artist, this big promoter, this big DJ. Now I don't even need to — like that guy could be completely out of my rolodex, and it doesn't matter, I can still do what I can do. People that you think you need to know, you need to work with to have success, you don't. You just need to believe in yourself and push your agenda. It does not matter anyone else's opinions. That's been my biggest learning curve of this year, and I think that's just a maturing thing, too.

John Kueppers

But an important lesson to learn nonetheless. And as you were talking, there were some big and important observations I think you were making too. So I also want to pick your brain about any other observations you've had when it comes to the Minnesota music scene in general, and maybe what there needs to be more of, or maybe what there needs to be less of, if there's gatekeeping, whatever the case might be.

Ricky 

Kind of what I was saying goes with that gatekeeping thing, is that there's really no one gatekeeping anything. If you come up and ask me for advice after this, advice after that, I might not want to keep giving it to you, because I don't owe you anything. So that could be thought up as gatekeeping like, "oh, you won't tell me what you learned." It's like, well I went through six years to learn what I had to learn, and you want to learn it all in one hour? It doesn't work like that. You kind of have to show me maybe why you deserve to know, certain things. But like the whole Minnesota music scene, I'd say a lot of artists are really talented, but they just don't push themselves hard enough. It's a broad statement, but what I kind of mean is you see a lot of these artists that are so famous that they don't need to be making TikTok style or Instagram Reels, I even tell a lot of artists I work with, and they don't even listen to me. I don't know if they're shy, I don't know what their what their deal is, or if they're scared to fail. I think a big thing in Minnesota is people are scared to fail. They don't want to post a video of them rapping on Instagram, and it gets 50 likes and 1,000 views when their last post had 300 likes and 10,000 views. And they'll delete it in two hours because it's not doing well. I've posted so many videos to Water Wave that get 1,000 views, and the next one is going to get 500,000 views. I'm not worried about the ones in between that don't hit, because you never know which one is gonna hit. So a lot of people, just get in front of a camera, rap, or put your song over the audio, and that's how people are growing nowadays. We're in such an age where people don't care about music videos, they don't care about albums. They want to see a 20 second snippet of who you are. And people are still caught up — I think Minnesota is just like old school, in a sense. Which it just doesn't seem like old school, we're just like 5, 10 years behind all the trends. Nobody's out here pushing themselves super hard. There's a few, and there's artists that have and they flourish because they see the vision. They see the meta. They're not blowing up overnight. No, they made 500 Instagram Reels, and one blew up and got them signed to a record deal because someone finally seen it, like "woah this guy is talented." And they check his page and like, "oh, he posts five a day. We can work with that." But when you post one post a month, no record label is gonna work with you, unless that one post you do a month has your whole city on lock and you're selling out shows, and nobody out here is selling out a lot of shows. There's a few artists that can sell tickets, but in the main population of Minnesota rappers, even if they get 1,000 likes on Instagram, there might be five people that buy tickets to their shows. Like, sure. There's a lot of weird love with the fans and the artists.

John Kueppers 

What's that disconnect?

Ricky 

I think it's just the idea that they're not being too personable on the internet. Like posting videos — in my opinion, you should be posting at least one Instagram Reel a day, and three TikToks a day — but TikTok might be getting deleted here soon from the U.S., so I don't even — but Instagram has all your stuff there. You should be posting at least one Instagram Reel a day, whether it's just a snippet of a music video you dropped, if it's just you rapping on your porch, it's you just sitting there drinking coffee with your music playing in the background. That's just stuff that your fans should want. And if you have true fans, they will want that. With Water Wave stuff I could walk out of here right now, pull out my phone and say, "if you're a rapper in Minnesota, you should be doing this." And you know, it's gonna get a lot of interaction, because that's what people want. They want the advice from someone that's been there. They want to see my face. They want to see me, hear me talk, and I recognize that, and it's like a lot of artists out here don't realize that if you do truly have fans that do support you, they want as much content as possible. They don't want one music video snippet a month. They want to see you. They want your personality. They want how you act. They want to see you in your normal clothes. They don't want to see you only wearing fake jewelry and whatnot — designer clothes. They want to see you. They want to relate to you. They want to see "oh, he wakes up every morning and drinks coffee and starts his day off looking crusty too. He doesn't just wake up a picture perfect person that doesn't need my help." That's a big thing too, a lot of artists try to fake that they don't need help, like their career is already good. They'll play the part of "I'm already a popping rapper." And to me, I'm like, "oh, well, he doesn't need my help then" or "he doesn't need my support." I might watch from afar just to see how it goes, but he's already made it. And if you're still living in the Twin Cities and you're not touring and selling out shows, you need people's help. You're nowhere near the point where you can be like, "I don't need no one's help." It's a good mindset to have, but you shouldn't show it that way. You shouldn't show "I'm top dog, and I don't need nobody's help." Everybody could use some help from somebody, for sure.

John Kueppers 

Absolutely, and it seems like they almost need to take the approach you guys did of just showing up and meeting with different people in the community and things like that. If I'm a fan and I want to support local artists here, what's the best way to do that?

Ricky 

I'd say going to shows is a big thing, because that's where you can actually talk to artists and get to know them. And buying the ticket to the show. I think a lot of artist friends think that they shouldn't buy tickets to their artists' shows. And if you're like, an artist's best friend that normally goes everywhere they go and maybe you're just automatically on a guest list, that's different. But a lot of artists or a lot of artist friends think like the 20th friend should just be showing up to the show for for free and getting on all access, like no that artist worked really hard for all these opportunities, and then the more people that they try to string along and get into shows for free, is only gonna ruin their reputation with venues and promoters and everything — security guards. It just becomes too much when you're trying to demand too much, especially at such a low level. Most of these artists aren't making these venues money. The venues are helping the artists out by giving them opportunities. Like, what are they making, 500 bucks tonight? They could have booked any national artist who made 5,000-10,000 tonight. It's not that big of a deal for the venues. But definitely show up. Show up to the shows, buy tickets to the show, support your friends. And if the artists are selling more tickets to shows, they're gonna get booked for more shows. They're gonna make more money, in return, they're gonna have a better reputation around the city. It's just kind of how it goes. But also just listening to your friends music too. It's not that hard. I probably listened to 10 different artists on the way here. Why can't one of those be your friend? And that kind of goes also with competition in the city too. I listen to so many different artists on a daily basis if I'm gonna listen to music, that there's room for everybody to eat and there's room for everybody to get their music played. So yeah, show up to your friends shows, buy their tickets to their shows, buy their merch. Like people spend thousands of dollars at these designer stores, but want their friends merch for free. They think they're entitled to that shit. I support a lot of local brands; one piece of my outfit a day is usually a local brand — actually I have two, I got the Wavy jacket and the Hybrid Nation pants on. It's not that hard to support your friends, people just feel entitled that if their friend is the one that's doing these things, they need to get in for free or need their items for free. And it's like, no, you should be the ones that's paying at the beginning, so that when they are rich and famous, that you are the one getting in for free. Because they remember you were the ones helping at the beginning. Instead, you were the one holding them back at the beginning, and now they don't want nothing to do with you, because there's too many people around or whatever.

John Kueppers 

Speaking of adding local artists the rotation, what were some of the highlights 2024 local music wise? What were your favorite tracks, or artists that maybe you discovered specifically in 2024, or just were in heavy rotation?

Ricky 

I'd say 2024 felt like a year where everyone was kind of watching each other. It didn't really seem like a year where I was overwhelmed with music releases. And I don't know if that's because I was more focused on the clothing store and throwing the vintage festival, and obviously like I said, my personal life stuff, planning an engagement, and then knowing I have a kid on the way. I've been kind of out of touch this year with a lot of the local releases. And then I even looked at my Spotify Wrapped and I spent more time listening to podcasts than music this year, which is kind of normal for me, but I don't know. I mean, I'm a little biased with my team, Treyson Green and Qmoe have been going really crazy this year, dropping a lot. There's an artist, he's not from Minnesota, but he lives out here now, is bdifferent. It's actually Anthony Edwards' brother, and that's why he's in Minnesota. He he's kind of taken over Minnesota a little bit, like in the underground scene. Obviously he's getting bigger opportunities because of where he's at with his family and Anthony Edwards, but his music's good. His music's actually really good, and he's been getting a lot of opportunities in Minnesota, the artists and stuff have kind of been accepting him. And we kind of talked about it in the interview I did with him, that some people see a new guy coming to their city, and they say, "oh, he's taking all my fans" but a lot of people have been accepting him with open arms, which I like. Without scrolling through my phone, or going through Instagram and just checking out artists' page, I don't even know if there is really a true highlight from this year. I'm sure there's a couple that are really, really good options, like people are obviously making good music. KayCyy is always going to be dropping good music, and Tae Supreme, Juice Lord, and EssJay and the Ozone Creations crew, like Obi and Sumer, and there's like the Mack OCs, and even Mac Irv, some of the older guys, and Prof, they're making good music. That's not the problem. But I just feel like there wasn't any huge, huge growth this year. You know there's a lot of underground people, and just younger artists, you got, the Adott Hilfigers and Fat Twin, I seen him recently. There's all these random artists that just keep popping up every day, and people are getting big features and stuff like that, but nothing came across my screen that I was like, "woah this guy is really different." I could just keep name dropping, but those are some of the names I guess I've been seeing a little bit more in the past few months than I normally would.

John Kueppers

What does it look like for people to be watching each other? Does that mean they're not taking a bold step and making that move? Or what does that mean?

Ricky 

I'd say it kind of just means they want to see someone else fail so that they can try to ride off of their failure. People are just almost scared to step out their bubble, like I said earlier. Drop a project — drop a song, I don't recommend anyone to drop an album right now that's at a local level, but to drop a song with the music video and do the whole Instagram Reel run. Jae Zole, he's been really good at Instagram Reels. His stuff pops up on my page a lot. I'd say he's probably one that's been doing really well this year. But it's also like, if we're talking a local level and you've been on my page a lot, or I've seen you a lot, it really doesn't mean much for the whole grand scheme of your music career. But the watching each other thing, it just seems like no one's out here worrying about what they got going on. They're more worried about maybe just being better than the next person, which I think another fault that we have in Minnesota is that everyone's kind of just worried about the next person. Where they stack up to the other artists. If you're worried about that, then your mindset is so wrong and you need to go meditate, go in a sauna, drink some water — you just need to reset your brain at that point, if you're worried about stacking up to the next. People used to always try to compare — say like, "oh does Water Wave have beef with Live on Lake Street or MN Stand Up, Motivation To Hustle, Carbon Sound? All you guys are all doing the same thing." And it's like no, whatever they do isn't gonna change what I do today. Whatever I do, shouldn't change what they do today. Maybe inspire each other, like "hey, you guys are really good at that. I should be doing some shit like that too. But yeah, I think the competition wise, and the trying to be better than the next artist is what holds a lot of people back, and that's what I mean by watching each other.

John Kueppers 

Hopefully we're not holding people back in 2025; I want to look forward one last time to this next year and ask one more time if there's anything we should be looking forward to Water Wave wise as we approach this new year?

Ricky 

Definitely more concerts this year. I don't have any other locked in, but I know that's going to be a focus that I want to push. Hopefully booking more artists, like working with some people that got a little bit more money behind them, to be able to bring out bigger artists and having us be really involved with it. That's one thing we haven't done a lot is brought out big names. We did like Tyla Yaweh and Bobby Raps, and we've opened up for Rich The Kid, 24kGoldn, Thouxanban like I mentioned earlier, but we haven't truly been the one booking these artists and running the ads, selling the tickets, when it comes to the big shows. That, more consistent content, like those Drown The Mic videos, interviews, just trying to be more professional with it. Definitely more streaming stuff too. We used to stream a lot, when we all lived together in the same house, we would just turn the stream on and sit on the couch and review music and talk, and that was a little bit before its time. This was way before the Kai Cenat blow up and Speed and all that stuff. So just trying to get back into that, as it's became such a popular thing nowadays, to just sit and talk and generate these clips. Just staying in people's face like it always has been, but maybe finding a way to just be more business oriented. Like, how can we actually make money off of this stuff? We've been doing it for so long where we're not making a lot of money, how can we truly make money off of this without stealing from the community? Because we could be like, "oh, interviews are $1,000" on our page, and it's like, how many people are gonna pay that $1,000 and is it worth them paying 1,000? Probably not. Is it feasible? No, I don't want to be a platform that's like, "oh, the only way to get on my page is paying." But it's finding ways that benefit each other, like the Drown The Mic videos. That's a good way for us to sell a service. We're shooting a video, we're editing a video, we're promoting a video, and we're sending it to you so you can do whatever you want with it. But figuring out ways to just make money, whether it's merch services, even working for other companies. We ran a livestream for this news company out here for the election night for a local election. Just finding ways where we can actually take on clients and utilize our skills, and you don't even have any Water Wave branding behind it, like you would never know that Water Wave did that. But just finding real ways to turn it into a business so that it makes sense to continue to keep doing and it's not like alright we've been doing this for 10 years and we haven't been able to pay rent off this yet like, what are we doing? Whether it means we have to sacrifice a little bit of time and effort to what we would like to be doing, just to do what actually pays the bills. Just figuring it out business wise.

John Kueppers 

I look forward to keeping track of Water Waves creative endeavors and what those business ventures might look like in the future. Is there anything else you want to leave us off with here today, Ricky?

Ricky 

I feel like we touched on a lot of stuff, but if anyone watched this whole thing, appreciate you for watching. One thing I always say is people always try to say what Water Wave should be doing, and no one knows your true path on what you want to accomplish and what it's going to take to get there. People think that like, "oh, you guys should be doing this" or "why aren't you doing that?" And it's like, well, to get to that point, we need to do this, this, and this first. You have to go brick by brick to build a house. You can't just throw all the bricks together and it builds the house. You have to lay one brick at a time to have a good foundation, or else it's going to fall down. So that's kind of where we're at right now. We're just trying to day by day, brick by brick, build this house so that when it's built and it's a nice house, it's not going to fall over and it's going to last forever. So however that applies to your business or your music, make it happen. Because every day people try to tell me what we're doing isn't right — not that our business isn't right, but "oh you should be making these moves, you should be making those moves." And I don't know, just taking criticism to a point to where it's like, "oh, maybe you should be checking out this artist." And we do check them out, and they're a good artist or whatever it is. But don't let other people's perception change your businesses outlook, or your true end goal of your business. Because I see how that happened with a lot of people, they get too much in their head, and they quit doing what they're doing, or they change their whole route because of the hate they may be getting on the internet or whatever it is, but there's people out there that'll like whatever you're doing — to an extent, obviously.

John Kueppers 

Absolutely. Lots of good stuff to look forward to. Lots of bricks built. We're looking forward to that Water Wave mansion in the future. Thank you so much for your time today.

Ricky 

Of course. Thank you.

Envy and Fancy from iLLism stopped by to talk to Carbon Sound’s host Sanni about their unwavering commitment to music and community through projects like The Legacy Building and Soul of the Southside, as well as their new approach towards making music.

Sanni Brown 

It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life, we are in Music Class. Now listen, I have to really prepare my brain, because I am a fan of this musical act, and so I got to make sure that I am asking questions in a way that everybody can become fans of iLLism. We got iLLism in the building, Minneapolis based hip hop duo, founders of The Legacy Building and Soul of the Southside, and so many community events that you have heard about, iLLism welcome. Thank y'all for coming in. Y'all, from my perspective, from where I'm sitting, you guys are really busy. So I'm really grateful for you guys being able to come in and talk and and tell us what y'all be doing, because y'all do a lot! So first of all, of the group, we have Envy and we have Fancy. So three things I want to touch on today: iLLism the group, The Legacy Building, and then Soul of the Southside. So I'm gonna start out with Soul of the Southside first. What is that about? How did that start? Put us on.

Fancy 

So it kind of goes in with The Legacy Building a little bit. So when we launched The Legacy Building, we were like, "okay, let's have a really fun grand opening weekend." And that particular summer (of 2022) Juneteenth fell on a Sunday. And I was like, this is just so perfect. What we're doing in this space as The Legacy Building, it is a reflection of how our creativity liberates us. So why not have all these different lineups of events? We had kids book readings, we had Black to the movies, we had poetry and coffee, we had all these different great events. I was like, "what if we just have something dope at the Hook and Ladder?" Because that's where the first Soul of the Southside took place, and that's kind of how it came to be. And it was just supposed to be for our grand opening, and then there were so many people asking to bring it back.

Sanni Brown 

That is so nice. How did that feel when everybody was like, "hey, y'all pulling up again?"

Envy 

For one, we were shocked. We didn't know that just us throwing a little shindig was gonna evolve into this big, community thing. And so yeah, three years going, we're like, "let's just keep it going."

Fancy 

Number four is coming up in 2025.

Sanni Brown 

Can you give any tidbits? Or do we got to wait?

Envy 

It's gonna be Black.

Fancy 

It's that every time, so you have that to look forward to for sure.

Sanni Brown 

Okay! So if we want to know about Soul of the Southside, how do we keep up with that?

Fancy 

Southoftheside.com. Soulofthesouthside (on social).

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Sanni Brown 

Alright. Now Soul of the Southside, you said this happened as a result of The Legacy Building, so tell us about The Legacy Building. We have to share the gems that are here in the Twin Cities.

Envy 

The Legacy Building is a all-in-one creative space. It is multi-level —

Sanni Brown 

I've been it's dope, y'all! It's super dope, y'all. Okay, go ahead. (laughs)

Envy 

It is a recording studio, it is a video studio, it's a photo studio, it is a rehearsal space, you can throw events there. If you want to throw a birthday party or you want to have a film showing, it pretty much can cover anyone who wants to do things.

Sanni Brown 

I have been there. I cannot — you know what, a charcuterie board of creative space. That's what it is. That's what it is, baby. It is, there's just so many different rooms. And if you're a creative and you can walk into a space and just grab inspiration, this is what I felt when I came into this space, and I even felt inspired in some of my own projects. What inspired you to create such a multifaceted space in the first place?

Fancy 

Okay so there was this moment, we were out in Vegas and we were filming a music video for our song called Simpleshit. And it was just in this garage, and it was super cool. And E(nvy) was like, "I want something like this, where I have a studio where I can just film, and people can just come in and we don't have to find a spot to film. We can just have everything all-encompassing in one spot." Because they had a lot of really cool stuff in there, a lot of different cool props, different areas designed for whatever your creative needs might have been. And when we got back — this was in like April, 2021 — in December, he was on his way to go get coffee right by the house, and he drove by what is now The Legacy Building and it had a sign in it, it was empty. It's vacant, "you want it? Give us a call." So he was like, "I'm about to call!" And I was like, "and then what??" (Laughs)

Sanni Brown 

Hold the story right there! It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. My name is Sanni, I am in the studio with iLLism, Minneapolis based hip hop duo, married couple, Black love in the house, and founders of The Legacy Building and Soul of the Southside, telling us the inspiration behind The Legacy Building. If you want to hear the rest of the story, don't go no place. It is Music Class on The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life.

Sanni Brown 

It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. iLLism, Minneapolis based hip hop duo, Black love in the house, 15 years! And also the founders of The Legacy Building and Soul of the Southside. We are at the part of the story of The Legacy Building, so if you just pulled up, Fancy and Envy of iLLism, you guys recorded a video in Vegas, and then you were like, "this is nice, this is inspiring!" Come back to the Twin Cities, you're in Minneapolis. You pull up to the building that is now The Legacy Building, you see a vacancy. And you said, "you know what? it's going down." And then fancy says, "okay, and then what??" (Laughs)

Envy 

So we called, and the landlord, he was all ears. Because the building used to be a record store —

Fancy 

And before that it was a consignment shop, before, and then it was SolSta Records after that.

Sanni Brown 

So the music elements and the soul of music was there.

Envy 

And we gave him the concept, and he was like, "yes, when do want it?"

Fancy 

Whatever that concept was, because we didn't actually know. We were just like, "we're creatives and we want to film in here." (Laughs)

Sanni Brown 

You must have had a vibe or something, did you already have a name by then? You were well known as iLLism at the time.

Envy 

Yep, as iLLism. And also, prior to even having a Legacy Building, me and fancy also do tons of stuff in media. So video to recording artists and stuff like that, a lot of it was done in our house, in our basement. And there's times where we'll have corporate or nonprofit clients coming in, like at the crib, in the cold basement.

Fancy 

The dungeon. (Laughs)

Sanni Brown 

That space feels very intentional. You know what it feel like? It feel like y'all had wanted that space for a really long time, and then when you got the space you just poured into it. It is an incredible space!

Fancy 

Yeah because when we got there, it was nasty. It was not cute up in there.

Envy 

She did not want it.

Sanni Brown 

Do y'all got pictures?

Fancy 

We do have pictures, actually I've shared a couple befores and afters on The Legacy Building Instagram. I'm gonna put some more up soon.

Sanni Brown 

I feel like it also illustrates the both of you's connection to your ability to create space and to be able to show that you can do that and that you can support that. So here's my question. So do you just create that space for artists to come in, or do you do you help them? Do you help them with the videography? Do you help them with artist stuff? Or is it just they use they space you let them do they thing?

Fancy 

Both. Yeah, there's some artists that come in, they already got their vision, they know what they want to do, so do your thing. We do have artists who come in, or creatives who come in, and they're just like, "I don't know" or some of the events that we've hosted at The Legacy Building, a lot of people have come to us and said, "this was my first time doing this." And of course, I act like an auntie, and I start crying (laughs), "I remember what it's like to be in this position!"

Envy 

And we'll help. If we gotta be the trash people for the day, if we gotta come in there and be a janitor, whatever, just to help.

Fancy 

Yeah, whatever that is, to give them the support that they need. It's hard. It's hard being an artist or a creative. And so if you have someone who also does what you do so they understand what your needs are, imagine what you can do when you're now in real space, that you feel safe in and supported in.

Sanni Brown 

Another reason why I like your space is because I have a background in the arts. I've done improv and stuff, and I feel like your space is Black. Carbon Sound is about Black musical expression, and I feel like that's Black expression in there, not just musical. I feel like I'm at my family's house when I'm there. Was that intentional? Because I've gone to other artistic spaces that don't quite got the feel that y'all got at The Legacy Building.

Fancy 

I don't know that we set out to do that. I think that's just a natural part of the energy.

Envy 

You know how sometimes you walk into some folks house and you're like, "man, this feels like home." Welcome home.

Sanni Brown 

For the creatives, welcome home. I felt comfortable. I love this. This is perfect, because now we've talked about Soul of the Southside. We talked about Legacy. Now we must talk about the foundation of these two things, iLLism. I know about iLLism; tell the folks listening about iLLism, because it looks like a root. So how did you become iLLism? Because it's clearly working!

Fancy 

When I met him, I met him in 2006. And the first thing he said to me — so we worked together AT&T, and the first thing he said to me was "I got a show" and he handed me his flyer, and I was like, "oh, great." And all that was cute, and over the years that we were together, he did his rap thing. I actually was not really doing music. I did like my singing thing as a kid, and then choirs and stuff, and certain parts of my journey led me to kind of stop doing that for a while. But I was always such a huge supporter of what he was doing. And, you know, he's charted it on Billboard, he's done lots of these really great, dope things. And it finally got to a point when I was like, "let me try. Put me on the mic boo!" And at that point I had learned how to record and do all that, because I was recording him, and he taught me how to engineer. And so I got on the mic, and he was like, "oh. I kinda like that!" And so we did our solo thing for many years, from like 2010 to about 2015 we were doing our solo thing. And finally, I was like, "you know, everyone likes when it's us two. There's a different response that we get." And not the response being like popularity, but the response being they feel love, they feel joy.

Sanni

Man, y'all space feel like that! I'm saying — I can feel it, man! (Laughs)

Fancy 

So I was like, "why don't we be in a group?" And he was like, "well I still want to be Envy." I was like, "well, duh." I was like, "but we do need a name." And we got lots of feedback from lots of different people who said, "of course, everyone knows y'all as Envy and Fancy, but y'all need a name." So I'm sitting there at work and I'm like, "okay, he agreed to be in a group with me, check (laughs). Now we need a dope name." And I was like, "wait, dope — ill, ill-ism." And I was like, "what does 'ism' mean?" It's after feminism, optimism. What does ism mean? Ism means movement. And so I was like, "we're a dope movement." And here we are all these years later, since 2015 when we finally put it out there to the world, I guess you could say.

Sanni Brown 

So this whole thing started almost 10 years ago. Ah!! Wow. How do you feel about the decisions that y'all made that led y'all here?

Envy 

It was probably the smartest decision that I've ever made.

Sanni Brown 

Oh my God, look at Twin Cities got a Love & Hip Hop story! (Laughs) Hey, right here on The Message, Carbon Sound. Y'all need to look into that, man. This is Love & Hip Hop. This is freaking Love & Hip Hop, the healthy kind! Not the kind that's bad.

Fancy 

Nope, no hitting, no kicking, no shouting, no name calling.

Envy 

And no cheating. (Laughs)

Sanni Brown 

Wow, I love this. I'm just saying, y'all should look into that. The Legacy Building, Soul of the Southside, you guys, this is real movement. When I was in radio school, my teacher, we had to sit at the desk, and they would sit and line us up like, "we gonna listen to your stuff. We gonna listen to everybody's stuff." And my teacher, we had somebody else that came in. It was an older student who had graduated, been to radio school, had and been working in the market, and she was so excited, and she was thanking him, and she was saying she was struggling right in the room where we were at, and she figured it out. And she was just saying how it's cool how life comes full circle. And so when you guys come in here and you say, "oh, I was just playing with some Fisher Price blocks, and now I have a Legacy Building." Like to watch a life go from this to that, and I know you guys are in it, so y'all don't see it like how I see it, but this is amazing. This is a win for the Twin Cities. This is a win for the Minnesota music movement. This is a win for Black love. I am honored to be in the presence of y'all. I am honored to know you guys. I'mma holler at y'all later on some back-end videography stuff (laughs). But yes, how can we keep in touch with all of this? Like, everything? Is it just soulofthesouthside.com to find out about everything that's going on with you?

Fancy 

Every piece of that has its own entity. So just iLLism, illism.com.

Sanni Brown 

And stop, No, no, no, no, no, no (laughs) — because we at the music part. And we in Music Class, so you gonna have to school us on any projects y'all got coming out! (Laughs)

Fancy 

We do, so one of the routes that we recently took — so here's a funny story. One of our band members called us up, and he goes, "I'm listening to KMOJ right now, and they're playing "Love and Loyalty," but it's not y'all. It's the opening segment for the Freddie Bell and Chantel Sings Morning Show." And I'm like, "yeah, you're right. They have our beat — it's not our beat, it's just a beat that a producer made. You know, when a producer makes a beat online, they put it online, everyone has like, a shot at access to it. And we've been doing it that way for so long, and there are these really great producers that are out there, but everybody gets access to their beats. And we're like, but we have this incredible band that we play with. What's up with them? Can they make us some stuff straight scratch, no one else got? I feel like we have a sound. When we have our own sound, what happens when people who've been playing our music can now help us to enhance or just solidify, recraft and refine that sound? And so it's taking us longer to put out a project because now we have all these extra souls and bodies that are also creative, and they want to put in their input. So new music is coming, it's just now we're taking a whole different approach.

Sanni Brown 

So y'all cooking from scratch instead of getting from the box.

Fancy 

Exactly. (Laughs)

Envy

No Uber Eats. (Laughs)

Sanni Brown 

And I totally understand you because I'm having the same issue. I'm not even gon trip it's a local artist, dropped a beat I was working on. I was like, "excuse me ma'am?"

Fancy 

It hurts! (Laughs)

Sanni Brown 

But it is a lesson. And as an artist, I love how you just was like, "you know what? That's okay. We're just gonna evolve and shift."

Fancy 

Yeah! It's all good. Gotta start somewhere.

Sanni Brown 

And y'all did start somewhere, and that's why y'all here, oh my goodness, Hercules! Everybody, iLLism! Yay! (Claps) Okay, so I follow y'all already, but how do we follow? What's the handle? If we're new to iLLism, how do we follow you?

Fancy 

@illism

Sanni Brown 

Thank y'all so much for coming in. I'm a super fan. I like I said, I'ma be in touch, for the video aspects and the creative space. This is why I'm excited about the Minnesota music scene. And y'all being in love is why I'm excited about being here. Okay okay, I gotta put back on the music. It's Music Class. Thank you again, y'all. Carbon Sound Music for Life. Don't go no place. We're gonna finish up Music Class. I think I want to put on something with love.

Fancy 

Period. Maybe iLLism.

Sanni Brown 

Absolutely!!

Nadi and Katie from Twin Cities United Performers (TCUP) sat down with Carbon Sound’s host Sanni and talked about all things TCUP: a group of musicians and performers throughout the Twin Cities that believe we can make Minnesota the best place in the world to be a performer.

Sanni Brown 

It's The Message, Carbon Sound, Music for Life. In studio — I got a 1,000 questions, but let me be professional and introduce — in the studio, we have Katie and Nadi from TCUP, or Twin Cities United Performers. They're a group of musicians and performers throughout the Twin Cities that believe that we can make Minnesota the best place in the world to be a musician. Lord have mercy. Carbon Sound audience, welcome TCUP, Twin Cities United Performers. Welcome, welcome, welcome, yay!

Katie and Nadi 

Thank you! Thanks for having us.

Sanni Brown 

Thank you for pulling up! So boom, what's with this? You believe you can make Minnesota the best place in the world — that is a big mission. Okay I'm biased, the Minnesota music scene is that girl (laughs). I feel like me personally, but I mean to make a statement like that, what's that about?

Katie 

Well, I think mainly what we feel is, like you said, we are that girl, but that's been really on the backs of all the performers. Performers in general, and the artists in this scene, put in a lot of labor just outside of making our art, to ensure that this is already one of the best places ever to just be a musician and be a performer. But we want to see that also reflected in how we get paid, how we are treated as actual workers in this scene. I think a lot of times people don't understand the scope of what it takes to be a working musician in the world, but especially in Minneapolis. And we just want to see that reflected in our venues. We want to see that reflected even within our legislation and our governments, we want to just have Minnesota be the steppingstone for hopefully the rest of the country, to be able to be like, "you can do this for real." And it doesn't take that you have to "blow up" or do all of these different things to be able to support yourself as a working musician.

Sanni Brown 

That's so important you say that because even sitting in this position, I've learned people just want to make a living, just like how you get up and go to work and work a day at the office. You want to record, or whatever it is your "thing" is, and you want to be able to go home. And to me, that's even weird, pairing the two.

Nadi 

It's unfortunate that that is the case, because it is seen as such a hobby and like a little side hustle. But it shouldn't, because you talk to musicians and they're thinking about it constantly. They put so much work into it. And if you actually calculated, like how many hours — you'd be like, "wait what?? You're getting paid pennies?"

Sanni Brown 

I think a lot of people on the outside — I will speak from a music consumer; you just get the final product. You got this song, you don't know that them people it took them five years — Jorja Smith just dropped a song that she wrote 10 years ago. It takes so much, and the doubt, and then "nah, you got to turn it in," and this person that you featured, they don't like it, or they late, or there's a timeline. And then you got to get a cover art, and just all these different things and everything costs money!!

Katie and Nadi 

 Yes, costs so much money.

Sanni Brown 

Everything. And you would think the technology, "oh, we have the internet" everything there costs money! So even with all of this confusion that I don't necessarily feel like I articulated very well for musicians, you are still saying you want to try to make Minnesota — you're going to make Minnesota the best place to be (a musician). So how is TCUP doing this?

Nadi 

I think right now, we're building base, we're letting people know what TCUP is. And so a lot of these conversations that we have, talking about these frustrations that you even just talked about, they often happen in the green room, or when you're loading out, and there's not really a place where you can take those frustrations out of the private and into the public. And that's what we're hoping to do with TCUP. We're hoping to have these conversations and kind of demystify what it means to be musician. So people can see a little behind the curtain and see how much labor goes into making your favorite songs and to making the soundtracks of your love life, or your wedding, and these things that are so important to you. And as a touring musician, when my friends come to Minneapolis, they're so blown away by how jampacked the talent is here, and how we do things. And so it's like, why does this not extend beyond Minneapolis? We got so much good here, but why are our artists — they can't buy a house, they can't buy groceries. There's a misalignment here. And also, if the venues, if they're saying talent costs too much, but musicians aren't getting any money, where's that money going?

Sanni Brown 

Right. Because the fans is pulling up to these situations (laughs).

Nadi 

And they're paying! Because ticket prices are crazy right now. But so who's getting that money? So I think it's just a conversation around — right now we're really working on transparency and equity in the scene. So like, everyone gets treated well at venues, and everyone knows what's going on. So we can, first of all, mend the relationship between venues and artists, because we both need each to exist, we really do. So yeah, just being very proactive and transparent in the work that we're doing, I think is the first step in building base and inviting people along to join the conversation, because we have heard so many stories.

Sanni Brown 

I'm an artist, so I know what you guys are saying (laughs). I feel like it's giving Pinky and the Brain, y'all gonna take over the world (laughs). This is a huge feat. First of all, I'm just gonna lay it out. This is The Message, Carbon Sound, Music for Life. We are in music class, and in studio we have Katie and Nadi from Twin Cities United Performers. You may know them as TCUP, and they are discussing pretty much doing a Wizard of Oz, pulling the curtain back on the music situation, so that artists can really see the whole big picture. Because even in the last year, I've realized everybody thinks, "oh, let's just make the song, put it on the radio." Nah, you can have your song licensed, you can have your stuff with a video game, you can hook up with commercials, just all these different things. And like you said, don't nobody know that. I feel like the music creators don't know that. So here's the scary part for me. I know y'all gonna make somebody mad, pulling the curtain back on that. So I'm asking, are you anticipating the challenges that you inevitably will come into contact with? Because I feel like, if somebody getting paid, the money is there, and maybe they benefiting from folks not really knowing how it works.

Katie 

Yeah, I feel like the people that are gonna get mad are the people that always get mad about stuff, in general. And I feel like what we've found is we've been doing a really intentional job of we're not on this crusade to be like, "this sucks, you suck, all of that." We're not into that. Especially when it comes to the venues, we love the venues because that's where we play. So we really want to see, like, "what is going on?" and what we've been finding a lot of the time is there is also a disconnect with the venues and the overhead that they have as well. And so it's like, where can we find this middle ground? For us as the artists, we're obviously going to be thinking of us first, and a lot of the times, we are the last people to get paid.

Sanni Brown

We 10th in line on that list!

Katie 

We're trying to mitigate having that, like, "I'm feeling a certain way about this, because your doors wouldn't be open unless I was here playing right now." So we should really be a little bit higher up on who's getting paid. There's no reason why I should be leaving with $25 for like six hours of work. It just doesn't really add up. But that's why we're really data driven. That's another thing that we're really trying to make sure that we're not just coming out here and making claims, like the narrative side of it, and talking to folks and having our personal experiences is one part of it that's extremely, extremely important, because that's a data set on its own. But we also want to get an actual scope and picture of what the whole thing really is, and so that we can say it's like, "well, actually, out of all of these venues in this radius, like this is the average of what people are getting cost. This is actually what the venues are saying of what their overhead is. This is how maybe the city is coming after them in certain different types of —" like the downtown live music tax, things like that. So we're really trying to find where are the gaps here that is making this so difficult, and then also be creative with what the solutions could potentially be.

Sanni Brown 

So y'all want everybody to eat?

Nadi 

We want everybody to eat! That's really what it is. And I think we're in a unique position, because we are creatives inherently. So we've always had to think outside of the box, and so yes, we'll exhaust every option, but we're also not afraid of thinking, like, "okay, well, how can everybody eat? And if this path hasn't been working, why are we still doing it?"

Sanni Brown 

Alright, we are in studio with Twin Cities United Performers, also known as TCUP, Katie and Nadi as the representatives, talking about some exciting stuff in the Minnesota music scene. So if you are a local artist, baby, they're talking to you. Local producers, baby, they're talking to you. Dancers, DJ's, baby, they're talking to — venues! Baby! We have Twin Cities United Performers in studio on The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. We're gonna come back and talk about this data driven information right after this on The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life.

Sanni Brown 

It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. We are in music class. We have a treat in here, if you are a local performer and you just trying to eat, we have Twin Cities United Performers, also known as TCUP they're a group of musicians and performers throughout the Twin Cities that believe that they can make Minnesota the best place in the world to be a musician. And if you're just tuning in, and you're like, "wait a minute, that's gonna make people mad." Nah, because the message is they want everybody to eat and to take them seriously. This is what I'm hearing from our last break is, first you were listening to musicians, and they were like, "hey, this seems funny." Then y'all went Nerd Girl and went to the data and listen, I'm a nerd girl, so I like that. So what is the data telling you? The scene is telling you one thing, what is the data showing y'all?

Nadi 

So we ran two surveys. Initially, we ran just a general performer survey to kind of get a temperature on what the scene is feeling. And I think the biggest disparity that I noticed from that is the amount of unpaid hours worked by musicians. It was crazy to see how that translated to what people actually were able to take home. So it just validated the conversations that we were having. We already knew these things, but yeah, the amount of people who want music to be a full-time job, but aren't able to make that happen, the amount of people who own their homes and would love to own a home but aren't able to do that. So it just confirmed a lot of the conversations that we had been having with our peers at a larger scale. And currently we're working on a project called the Venue Report Card that, just kind of shows what the gaps are in venues. How accessible are they? Do you know what you're going to get paid going into the night? Do you feel safe and secure? Do you feel like you are respected? A lot of questions are on dignity and respect. And also like, how did the show go? And also celebrating the venues that are rock stars and consistently doing good things. So we're trying right now, to deeply understand the gaps in our communities and have conversations with these venues and better understand why are things this way. Is there opportunity for us to be better? And there always is. So it's just a matter of being brave and having those conversations and inevitably, people will probably be upset because change is uncomfortable, but it's never at the idea that we're coming at you and we want you to cease to exist. We just want it to better serve all of the community.

Sanni Brown 

It's just such a rich scene, and it's wild to me that people are not getting what they put into it. It's just insane to me.

Nadi 

And that discourages people, and it also makes it inaccessible. You have to be able to sacrifice a certain amount of your life, unpaid, to do what you can't imagine doing anything else. The barrier to entry, then, is so high because if you think about how that actually translates in costs, I think we're missing out on some amazing music because people aren't able to actually enter the scene.

Sanni Brown 

I'm so glad you said that. I'm so glad you said that, because I hear people go, "oh so and so could have made it" or "oh so and so —" and it's like, do you know the support system that they had? Do you know what they local scene looks like? Do you know — the accessibility, things like that. And so that's why this is blowing my mind, that you guys even stepped up in this way. So can you tell me a little bit about y'all background? Y'all are musicians? Okay so tell me, dish (laughs).

Katie 

Yeah, so, I'm a musician. I'm in three different bands, Butter Boys, Ghost Kitchen, and High Tiny Hairs. And then I also work full time as an organizer as well. So I have these two different worlds, and TCUP really just melded those two different things. And I just kind of fell into becoming a musician. I always wanted to do it, and then just kind of took a plunge. And it was a risk; once I found out what it actually takes, it's like, "okay, I gotta drink a lot more coffee than I was drinking before (laughs). Because people don't really understand, a lot of the times it's like, you're playing a show, my set time might not be until like 8 or 9, but load in is at 5 o’clock. I'm there from five until, like, almost two in the morning, and then I gotta wake up and go to work also the next day. So it's a big adjustment. But like Nadi was saying, when it's thing that you love the most you're gonna figure it out. You're gonna make it work. And yeah, that's why it's so important. It's like, if I could just be making a little bit more money, doing the thing that I actually like, I could be maybe drinking less coffee and maybe getting a little bit more sleep (laughs).

Sanni Brown 

What do you do in the band?

Katie 

In Butter Boys, I am lead vocals, and I play keys. And Ghost Kitchen, I play guitar, bass, and lead vocals, and then in High Tiny Hairs, I play keys and backup. I know pretty much all of them, except for the drums (laughs).

Sanni Brown 

Nah, you play bass. That's cold. Do you play anything?

Nadi 

Yeah, I am in the band Gully Boys. I play the drums and I do backing vocals. And I got into music — I mean, I've been an active member of the music scene for almost a decade now. I started as a dancer, as a backup dancer, like a go-go dancer. I was like a backup dancer for Lizzo on call when she first had her first dancers. And I had never danced before, but I was like, "I gotta be involved in this scene, it's so cool! And it was the way that I felt like I could enter. And then I started Gully Boys, which I had never played the drums before in my life, but I said, “I'm gonna be a drummer now.” (Laughs)

Sanni Brown

Instruments are so — they call you.

Nadi 

I had always wanted to play, but my mom said no. She said it was too loud.

Sanni Brown 

With the red hair, let me know how you was when you was young (laughs).

Nadi 

Exactly. But yeah we started, and we've been a band for almost 8 years. It's very fun, and we all started because we were like, "no one's gonna teach us how to do this, and no one's gonna tell us that it's time." So we just decided, we had all not played our instruments before, and we were just like, "let's do this. Let's rock." And it was really hard, and I didn't know anything. I didn't know what it took to set up a show. I didn't know what it took to record, to learn all the instruments. And so I feel fortunate, because luckily all of my bandmates were that dedicated, where we were like, "okay, we're gonna do all of this free labor, because we literally can't imagine doing anything else." We love it so much. But not everybody can do that.

Sanni Brown 

And I want to say this, I think even in my own experience with my own art, I feel like people associate a good paying job with there has to be some type of, you have to hate it or something. And it's like, no, why can't I be happy and make other people be happy?? And so I like that you're cracking the ceiling on this idea of how to look at musical work.

Nadi 

Yeah I mean, because it is labor. For you the listener, what I'm trying to tell you (laughs), please hear me, that being a musician is a real job, and it is real labor.

Sanni Brown 

And just because you love it doesn't make it any less labor. It is a labor of love! (Laughs) Yes! TCUP letting us know music really is a labor of love. I talk about Music for Life all the time. And it really is a labor of love, because them people could have just kept them lyrics to they self and went to the therapy and closed the door and been done with it (laughs). So how can we support TCUP, the local Minnesota music scene? How can we support this?

Nadi 

I mean online. If you follow us on Instagram, @tcupmn, we're very active on there. It's very funny, I promise. We're very silly, it's not all so serious (laughs). But we throw shows around town where we pay artists, pretty dang good.

Katie 

Yeah that was one of the main things, if we're throwing a show, specifically, we find the money, and we make sure that they get paid a lot of money.

Nadi 

And we make it free to the public so everybody can come and experience. Making arts more accessible.

Sanni Brown 

I like that. Aw, you guys are making dreams come true, man.

Nadi 

But the thing I really want to plug if I could, December 14, we have a big open meeting. We're doing it at a venue this time, at Pilllar Forum (Note: This event has now been moved to the Green Room). From 10am to 12pm we'll have donuts and coffee. If you're a musician, if you are a dancer, if you are a burlesque performer, if you're a DJ, come to this meeting, because we're gonna be launching our first campaign. We're gonna be connecting with one another, and it's just gonna be a good way for us to go into the new year really understanding this is who TCUP is, and we don't play no games.

Sanni Brown

You don't play no games. Hey, once you told me you pulled in the data, I knew it was serious. Because as you guys know, as you're building this, it's one thing to say it, it's another thing to actually go out there and be like, "how do we really actually do this thing we're saying we're doing?" I love this. Oh, man, it's not enough time, nah — you was born out of the historic campaign to organize and unionize workers at First Avenue? Y'all out there like that? Y'all boots on the ground like that?

Katie 

Yeah, that's how it started. It's when the First Ave workers said that they wanted to unionize. We were kind of this other side of the coin, obviously, because there's the workers at First Ave, and then there's the artists. And we came together as a support to help amplify their voices and what they were doing. So we all got together, and then we were like, after that kind of was fizzling out, like "we all rule" (laughs). We were able to, in a very short amount of time, accomplish things that a lot of organizers, it's their dream to be able to have this many people not only just sign something, but show up to meetings, give their time and their energy and their expertise on accomplishing something and a goal. So we all were looking around the room and being like, "do you wanna just keep doing this thing?" And then that's where it kind of like, systematically, instead of just jumping in and being like, "I think we should be doing this." We're like, "let's actually take the time. There's no rush. Let's figure out what is it that we want to do in like, one year, three years, five years."

Nadi

There will be a TCUP venue one day.

Katie 

There will be a TCUP venue one day.

Sanni Brown 

We all agree that instruments pull us. You literally just described how this instrument pulled you into this, that's insane!

Nadi 

 I think people don't realize that musicians are kind of inherent organizers. We organize shows; we do so much work. So it was so easily transferable. When First Ave was like, "will you stand with us in solidarity?" We were like, "yeah, us and 300 of our friends are gonna be like, 'we got your back.'" And we were able to organize that and orchestrate that in like, a week’s time. And so we're like, we've been organizing on behalf of others, why not organize on our own behalf and not wait for anyone to come and save us? Because we got each other's backs.

Sanni Brown 

Y'all gonna make me jump (laughs). I like this. No, I have this idea of what the Minnesota music scene is, and the players and the people and the pillars that are holding it up, you guys are definitely pillars holding the thing down. Y'all trying to make sure people eat so that they can continue to be excited and Carbon Sound, Minnesota music scene, Twin Cities United Performers, TCUP, holding it down, making sure we eat. I love this. Please follow them on social media @tcupmn, and be on the lookout for that event that you're launching. You're launching your first campaign for TCUP on 12/14. Website in the works, perchance?

Nadi 

So TCUP has like a parent org that we organize under, Take Action Minnesota. And they help us do what we got to do. Take Action, literally. And so we have a web page on their Take Action site.

Sanni Brown 

Okay awesome. Hey, when I be telling y'all to send in your music, this is the next step! If it hit, you got to perform! Make sure you're ready. Nadi, Katie, thank you so much for coming in today. I'm really excited about the Minnesota music scene because of this.

Nadi 

Thank you for having us.

Katie 

Oh my gosh, thank you so much for so much for having us.

Sanni Brown 

Yay! Alright, back to y'all, we still in Music Class. I got music for you, but local artists, Twin Cities United Performers, TCUP, put that in your notebook, in your whatever, your address book. We back to the music. It's The Message, Carbon Sound, Music for Life.

Scott Herold stopped by to talk to Carbon Sound’s host Sanni about all things HSRA: a school with a mission to provide youth the opportunity to achieve a high school diploma through the exploration and operation of the music business and other creative endeavors.

Sanni Brown 

Oh, buddy. We got a heavy class in music class today. It's Carbon Sound, Music for Life. And in with me — I do not know this man, but I always have the resume in front of me. And just walking into the room and hearing him talk, so much knowledge. Scott Herold, business of music facilitator at High School for Recording Arts. First of all, I am a fan. I've always driven past it like "I wonder what it's like inside." So to have you here today, Carbon Sound audience, give a big, warm welcome for Scott Herold, the music facilitator of High School for Recording Arts. If you have ever been like, "what's going on in that building?" and you want to know, now is the time to pull up to the interview today. Welcome Scott.

Scott Herold 

Thank you. Happy to be here and share our story. Thanks for giving us the space.

Sanni Brown 

Let me read the resume, y'all. Teaches the business of music and media at the High School for Recording Arts in St. Paul, Minnesota, and Los Angeles, California, leads the innovative and high impact vocational discovery job squad program for High School for Recording Arts. You're the CEO and founder of music nonprofit and recording label, Rock the Cause, and in 2012 you departed from the corporate world to focus full time on Rock the Cause Records. Okay so boom, pitch, let us know who you are. I'm new to you, but the vibe is you that man (laughs). Before we even get everything you're doing, how did you get into this?

Scott Herold 

My whole life is music.

Sanni Brown 

So what does that mean? Break that down for us.

Scott Herold 

Well, ever since I was a little kid, I mean, I've got this picture on my Facebook page of me with this Fisher Price Turntable and my 45 records, that's what started it for me. And so I'm just music, music, music. And for me that was my way of feeling like I had a sense of belonging, or a sense of coming from somewhere.

Sanni Brown 

Wow, I felt like that in school, because I could dance, some of the bullying was curbed because I could relate to people that way.

Scott Herold 

It was something that I could own. It was something that belonged to me, that no one could take away from me. And I grew up in a home that — my dad left when I was 13, and my mom raised three boys on $9,000 a year. So music got me through all of that, and then years later, I got into the corporate world. I studied theater for a while, moved to the Twin Cities to do theater, but then needed work —

Sanni Brown 

Where you from?

Scott Herold 

 I'm from Nebraska City, Nebraska. Which is 40 minutes outside of Omaha. I am from the sticks.

Sanni Brown 

But my immediate thought was, it wasn't that bad cold wise for you to — is it more intensely cold there?

Scott Herold 

No, it's worse here.

Sanni Brown 

Is it really?

Scott Herold 

Yeah I mean, Nebraska has intense weather. What we have in the summer, all summer long, is like 90 to 100 degrees and humid. And you're in the cornfield, so there's dust.

Sanni Brown 

Yeah, because you said it's the sticks. So I'm also thinking about how that affects people that are living there.

Scott Herold 

It gets cold there. And it's also one of those areas of the world that's really in an economic recovery, but they're doing really cool things there in terms of sustainable farming economies, child health and wellbeing, so I'm proud of them. Nebraska is coming a long ways and doing a lot of cool things.

Sanni Brown 

But you come from there.

Scott Herold 

Come from there. Come to the Twin Cities to study theater, and then I needed work. So I got into sales, and I started out in furniture sales, selling leather furniture —

Sanni Brown 

Young people just so you know, even though you went for theater, you still got to pay the bills.

Scott Herold 

I had to back it up. So one day I just decided, I don't want to be in the furniture industry when I'm 40 years old. So I found a job working for a publishing company here in St. Paul called Llewellyn Publications, oldest and largest publisher of New Age books in the world. And from there, I catapulted that to vice president of sales for this company called CRS Merchandising. So I actually negotiated the contracts to do marketing and merchandising for consumer goods products inside of places like Target and Super Value, etc. We had 4,000 reps across reps across the country. We would do point of purchase, reset planograms, etc. And then I was doing that, and that got to be a real volatile industry. And I finally just said, "I want to give back to my community; I want to do something that gives back to the world." And to me, that was getting involved with working with nonprofits, getting involved and working with high schools, like High School for Recording Arts, and eventually getting a distribution deal with Sony to start running a record label that connects artists with community and gives back to the world.

Sanni Brown 

Wow, so you used your vice president skills to leverage yourself into a distribution deal with Sony. Did I hear that right?

Scott Herold 

Well, I used all of my background, all of my skills, my passion —

Sanni Brown 

I mean if you a vice president, we know the type of skills (laughs).

Scott Herold 

Yeah, all the business skills. I went to college, but I never went to business school. It was just something that I learned on the job. It's something that I had to learn to do. I got a business sense about myself, and even on the record label side, I had to learn everything that goes into copyright law, radio promotion, advertising, marketing, etc. And then one day, Junior Achievement calls me and says, "we want to tell you about this school in St. Paul called High School for Recording Arts, and we think they could benefit from your time." So I went, and I stayed.

Sanni Brown 

I love how y'all just come in here and casually, just lay out the magic. So you're this big corporate guy, and you say, "I want to do something for the community. And you are so well established with your skillset that they're calling you and saying "hey, there's this school." And they say, "can you teach the things that you're doing to the school" is basically what happened?

Scott Herold 

Yeah.

Sanni Brown 

Okay, so we're gonna pause right there, because I gotta play some music. But we are now at the at the point where we're about to meet High School for Recording Arts Scott Herold. So before we get into that, I'm gonna pause. We're gonna be right back. It's The Message, Carbon Sound, we are in music class in studio with Scott Herold, business of music facilitator at High School for Recording Arts, letting us know how he became the man today that's helping the young folks. And the things that he was talking about in studio, I mean, oh my goodness, this is insane. Just stay tuned. It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. In studio with Scott Herold, do not go anywhere.

Sanni Brown 

We are back. It is The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. We are in music class with Scott Herold. I'm not even sure how he got time to come over here and talk to us — business of music facilitator at High School for Recording Arts in St. Paul, excuse me, and L.A.?

Scott Herold 

All over the country. I do work with HSRA all over the country.

Sanni Brown 

You're talking about the business of music. This is so interesting. I went to school for music business, and that's how I ended up in radio. I won a scholarship, and one thing led to another. Now the things that I hear, we didn't talk about that at school. The things that you're teaching at High School for Recording Arts, why is this important for young people? Why is it important for anybody to know it? But why is it really important for young people to know it?

Scott Herold 

I think we gotta start with the "who HSRA is," and it'll make more sense as I tell this. So HSRA has been around for 27 years. It was founded by David "T.C." Ellis, who was a friend of Prince, a childhood friend of Prince. And when Prince split with Warner, David optioned out of his contract to Paisley and said, "I want to start this school." And this school is really designed for — the average student at HSRA has probably been to four to five high schools before coming to us. Two thirds are justice impacted; they are impacted by the juvie justice system. A third identify as being homeless or having experienced homelessness throughout their lifetime. And we really, we are an anchor in the old Rondo community of St. Paul. It's a school that really serves young people that the traditional model was not successful for.

Sanni Brown 

That's exactly what I'm hearing from you.

Scott Herold 

And so through the incorporation of the business of music, we have multi-million dollar recording facility with beat making stations, audio engineering stations, I mean, stuff as nice as you have here at MPR, plus videography, etc., and it's all project-based learning. So when I go into that school, I know that there's a lot of young people there that are creatives —

Sanni Brown 

That's a rough — continue, go on I won't make no judgments.

Scott Herold 

But you know this from being a creative, and any creatives that are out there listening, creatives get marginalized, man.

Sanni Brown 

Yes, coming up in school, it was not my cup of tea. The only time I really shined is when we had projects. That was the only time, is when it was something creative.

Scott Herold 

So that's what we do. We are project-based learning. So students create projects, we use Inkwire as AI to help them define what the scope of the project is going to be, and within the actual project, we are able to link that back to core academics.

Sanni Brown 

I mean, that's all life is — I remember I told my daughter, "just learn how to finish the task." Just finish the task and understanding, like you said, walking through the whole thing. But to a creative when I hear task, I don't — so if you say project, the way that you're even presenting it to the young people.

Scott Herold 

Yeah so it's project-based learning, but the creatives get marginalized. And what I've seen, and we've all seen —

Sanni Brown 

What do you mean when you say marginalized, what do you mean?

Scott Herold 

Creatives get told, "oh, you want to be an audio engineer? That's not a real job."

Sanni Brown 

Yes, absolutely. Or “you want to make a living with art? Can't do that.”

Scott Herold 

And then there's this negative narrative out there that somehow has filtered itself into our school system, that says "we cannot compete on the world stage with students that are focused on art. They need to learn math, they need to learn STEM, etc." True, but one of the things I like to tell my kids and to the listeners out there is, when you think about the U.S. GDP, it's $27 trillion.

Sanni Brown 

Okay wait, it's young people listening. U.S. GDP, what are we talking about?

Scott Herold 

We're talking about the gross national product. We're talking our entire U.S. economy, which is the biggest in the world. What do you think would happen to the economy if there weren't broadcasters, podcasters, graphic designers, audio engineers, licensing executives, etc.?

Sanni Brown 

I mean engineers are creatives on a very large, grand scale (laughs).

Scott Herold 

Yeah, so our economy would tank without the creatives. There'd be no Netflix, there'd be no sporting —

Sanni Brown 

What is innovation?

Scott Herold 

Yeah, it comes from the creatives, man. Everything in this economy is driven by creatives so why are you constantly told it's not a real job? So I know a lot of the students are coming in, they're like, "oh, I'm going to be the next superstar. I'm going to be the next Billboard sensation." But I know the reality of that is there are jobs out there that they can do. So I like to focus on teaching them about the careers that are in the industry. So for example, we'll spend time looking at how do you get music onto Netflix? How do you get music into television and film? Sync licensing, etc. Copyright law, digital distribution, how you get your music played on radio. We've even had students here that are part of our PR team that email Diane from The Current and send her over new music created by the students and local artists. So we do all the career stuff. But then it goes back to academics too, because if I'm teaching synchronization licensing, license and sync, then I'm teaching copyright.

Sanni Brown 

Yes, you are. You have to, yeah.

Scott Herold 

And copyright is government. So how does a law get written? What are the executive branches of our government that allows this copyright law to exist? What are the changes that are happening in copyright law, and then working with the teaching staff at the school or the student's advisor, then we can issue credit in government, which goes towards their graduation.

Sanni Brown 

Wow. And you know what? I bet a creative came up with the design of that program (laughs). Was it a creative?

Scott Herold 

Yeah, I'm a creative. I'm a creative at heart.

Sanni Brown 

There you go, boom! But I really like how you said that, because when we think creatives, we think, "oh, influencer, social media." It's always like a limited, dumbed down kind of thing. But you're right, I immediately think of an engineer as a creative. But you're right, designing a bill, creating a bill, you have to have innovation. I love how you put that. You can tell that you're telling the kids that all the time. You can tell, so what do you specifically teach?

Scott Herold 

I specifically focus on a lot of what I've just divulged on here. It's business of music and media, and I really look at it as career exploration. And then we have the vocational discovery side of things, where through different grants to the school, federal funding partnerships with Ramsey County, City of St. Paul, etc. At any given moment, we can have up to 25 to 30 young people who are working in paid internships, making 15 bucks an hour.

Sanni Brown 

That's so beautiful. I say this because, as someone who was in radio, I had to work for free for so long (laughs). And then I just remember my age group of people being like, "this isn't right. Young people should be paid for the work that they're doing."

Scott Herold 

You should be paid.

Sanni Brown 

So hearing that, High School for Recording Arts, you guys are getting the babies paid.

Scott Herold 

And that gets back to marginalization, because a lot of the kids that we're working with come from very tough situations. They don't have access to the internship sometimes, because there's so many barriers. And if they do get access to an internship, it's like it's either choosing to do the internship to advance themselves or being able to take care of themselves and their siblings. Because many are homeless, they don't have the home life support, they need those intern wages. And that steers them away from criminal activity, helps to ease the burden of homelessness, etc. So many of the young people get 10 hours a week to 20 hours a week, making 15 bucks an hour. They produce podcasts they create — right now, I got a message today that we have an entire album ready. I got it from the studio team, an entire album about mental health issues affecting teens that the students just finished the last track.

Scott Herold 

We don't have a title name, by chance?

Scott Herold 

We don't have a name yet. We're working on that with the students, but my students and I were given the task to take this 11 to 12 track record that the students produced about mental health issues and get it to iTunes, get it to Apple, get it to the media. These are transferable job skills.

Sanni Brown 

I told y'all he was gonna come in here, and just — I said it at the beginning of the interview (laughs). In my career in radio, everything you're saying that you are providing the kids, it's like, "okay, so another generation of kids don't have to —" I had to go and give blood at the plasma center on this dream. Because you're right, you have to choose between this opportunity or "man, am I going to eat?" And there were plenty times I had to go to the internship that I was already doing for free and not eating. And then on top of this, this is the biggest thing, you're setting them up for understanding that their skills are worth being paid for. That is the hugest thing, and they're so young and they're hearing this. Who do we thank?? (Laughs) And this is just High School for Recording Arts chilling on University Avenue. And y'all doing all of this??

Scott Herold 

Yes we are.  And we are trying to replicate it across the country. So when you said earlier about me teaching in other markets, we have a sister company called 4Learning, which is a nonprofit arm of High School for Recording Arts, they're a California based nonprofit. But we learned a long time ago to go into L.A. or to go into Chicago and build a brick-and-mortar school, and then you got to deal with the the Departments of Education, the school boards, and so there's already schools that exist, so we go into the schools under contract with those school districts and build HSRA style programs.

Sanni Brown 

Y'all bad, man. I had no idea (laughs).

Scott Herold 

That's why it's important to come here and tell our story.

Sanni Brown 

Man, Minnesota music scene, ladies and gentlemen. When I tell you why I get so excited, and it's like the more I find out — first of all, we just casually moved past the fact that High School for Recording Arts was created by David —

Scott Herold 

"TC" Ellis. So he's the rapper at the end of Graffiti Bridge.

Sanni Brown 

So he's Prince's friend — it's all connected, and it's just so exciting. This is insane. How can parents find out more information about the school? If you know a young person that may be on a hard situation, and you know they're talented, how can they get a hold of you and find out how to become a part of this?

Scott Herold 

First of all, they can go to hsra.org, and anybody who wants to see our content, our record label, we have 144 tracks that are on the DSPS that are student produced. We have podcasts, all sorts of stuff. You go to hsra.org, you can see the creative work of the students, but they can go to hsra.org, enroll now and fill out the enrollment application. It is a charter school, and it's free and open to the public.

Sanni Brown 

And what about like location and stuff? Can young kids that are far away —?

Scott Herold 

Oh, absolutely. We have kids who come in as far away from Brooklyn Center.

Sanni Brown 

Woah! I mean, look what y'all got though (laughs).

Scott Herold 

We have kids who come all the way in from Brooklyn center, North Minneapolis, etc.

Sanni Brown 

That's a testament to the programming.

Scott Herold 

And if you're behind on credits, it's okay because you age out of program at 21. We're not the type of school that says, "okay, you got to show up here every day. You got to be here every day." Obviously, we want you in the door. We want that attendance there. But we know these kids live very complex lives.

Sanni Brown 

That's so compassionate, what you just said. That's not a sentence I heard a lot when I was younger. I was in foster care, so that's why this is insane to me, that this resource is here for young people. And they do, they live complex lives. Man, I am so appreciative to you and High School for Recording Arts, it's complex what you're doing.

Scott Herold 

Everybody should be doing it, because it keeps the young people engaged. And just for example, we've got, right now, probably about 253 to 254 students per semester. That's comfortable for us, because then we can specialize with each child. But when you think about the demographic we're working with, it's a lot. And there's a lot of need there. We graduate 70% or more of our seniors every year. And these are kids that everybody else said was beyond reachable.

Sanni Brown 

I love that. I love hearing about people changing their idea about curriculum to fit the need of the kids.

Scott Herold 

Yes, it's student focused.

Sanni Brown 

Let's say people in the community want to support, how can they support High School for Recording Arts?

Scott Herold 

They can go to hsra.org and donate to the school. A school like us should never have to choose funding, but for some reason we gotta — we should always have all the funds to do what we want to do, because we do the work nobody else wants to do. But you can go to hsra.org and you can donate. Or, if you are an employer, or you have internship programs available, you can reach out to me at scottherold@hsra.org, I'm also on the website. Reach out to me if you have some sort of innovative job, etc, or the other thing we do for artists — you want to get your music to radio? We have interns who know how to get your music to radio. We do it on a per fee basis, because the kids have got to get paid, but we can get music to radio. The students,. one of their biggest claim to fames is they run radio campaigns, getting music to radio for the three-time Grammy Award winning Sounds of Blackness. That's how good they are.

Sanni Brown 

(Laughs) Man, I read about your stuff — oh my goodness. Every interview just proves to me that what I think about the Minnesota music scene, I'm not wrong. This is insane. And it's one thing to be excited about the artists, but man, you're a freaking artist production place, High School for Recording Arts, you're creating the future of the Minnesota music scene. Salute, man (laughs). It's awesome what you do, man. I'm sorry that I lack the words right now. I worked with young people, that's my first professional passion. That's so magical to empower the kids like that. I love that. Scott Herold, business of music facilitator of High School for Recording Arts. You gotta come back. But still, thank you so much for coming in and thank you from the bottom of my heart for everything that you do, because it's exciting to know about the Minnesota music scene, but to see the people who are pouring into the scene, it's just an honor to be here and an honor to be in your presence. Wow. Thank you, Scott Herold, thank you so much.

Scott Herold 

Thanks for giving us space.

Sanni Brown 

High School for Recording Arts. Hey, if y'all want to support, run this interview back on our YouTube, and run this interview back on carbonsound.fm. Young people, if you want to be a part of this, this sounds like something you want to be a part of, they're doing the work. Run the interview back. Could you just say it one more time?

Scott Herold 

Hsra.org

Sanni Brown

Alright. Thank you, Scott. It's The Message, Carbon Sound, Music for Life.

Scott Herold 

Thank you, Carbon Sound.

Feven Gerezgiher is a reporter and producer for MPR News Reverb, a team focused on reporting with and for young adults. In her interview with Carbon Sound, she talks about local elections and the impact that these can have on your community.

Sanni Brown 

I am truly excited today, Carbon Sound audience, this is The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life Sanni here your radio friend and in studio I have Feven Gerezgiher reporter and producer for MPR News and Reverb, we're going to talk about the election, we're going to talk about how young people can be a part of that, and whatever else that's on the table that Feven wants to let us know about. Welcome to Carbon Sound, welcome to The Message!

Feven Gerezgiher 

Thank you for having me.

Sanni Brown 

I am excited about what you do. I worked with kids, my first professional passion was working with kids. So anybody that I see out here in adulthood that's passionately working with young people, I'm always like, "okay, we out here!" First of all, tell me how you got into being a reporter and producer at MPR News, if you will.

Feven Gerezgiher 

Yeah, I had a nontraditional path into journalism. My story actually starts with a summer camp for students to learn journalism in high school, and that was my only experience. And after I went through several job changes, I was like, "I want to do storytelling again." And ended up in a community radio project reporting in the aftermath of George Floyd's death. And that took me to mentoring at another summer media camp, and when MPR was trying to launch this reporting team that is trying to reach younger audiences, they were like, "we like what this person brings." You know, this like community experience and also relationships to young people. And so I was tapped to join in kind of late 2022, ahead of that election cycle, to start experimenting with ways for this election.

Sanni Brown 

Do you have experience working with young people?

Feven Gerezgiher 

You know, I am an eldest daughter —

Sanni Brown

Okay, I already get the vibes (laughs).

Feven Gerezgiher 

So, I mean, that was already built in. And just through different community organizations, I volunteered, I tried coaching — shout out to all the coaches. That is so hard, it's not for me (both laugh). But I tried, and I learned a lot. I think it has just been part of different things that I did, but being part of that camp, which is through SPEAK MPLS, I was sharing what I know. And I think that's so much of everyone's journey, you have a mentor, and you're a mentor to someone else. And so I think even being like, "I don't know everything, but I'll show you what I know." And that's all you need to get your foot in the door and start producing, and that is enough. And it's been really gratifying to see some of those students even continue to make short films and submit them to film festivals.

Sanni Brown 

That's cool! That's what it is. When you guys come in here and tell your story, you're like, "this just happened like this." But to us listening to it, it's cool to see somebody just decide they're gonna do something. Or you're just following what you're interested in. You're following what you naturally do. And to me, there's something so magical about the simplicity of that, because look where it leads you. It's so simple as "I want to do that. I want to try that." And for young people that are listening to know that's really what it takes, you just make the decision and then you go on that. That's magical to me (laughs).

Feven Gerezgiher 

And what I appreciate about our team — that the team that I'm on now — that's Reverb (got the shirt). That is so much like our ethos, if we're interested in it, other people probably are too. So like, the other week, we learned that Krispy Kreme was coming back to Minnesota, and we were like, "oh my god." But I was like, "hold on, if I am sending this to my friends, I think other people would too. So let's just do a quick little story on this." And people are excited, because that's a big deal. Like, donuts — that's an important part of the culture.

Sanni Brown 

I remember when I was in college and Krispy Kreme wasn't here, and it was coming to the Twin Cities (laughs). So it's a culture of people that appreciate that type of media — just like this, I'm looking at, I'm looking at your resume, because it's a resume when they come up in here, y'all. So I'm looking at the stories that you've covered, the one that stuck out to me the most is that the only Minnesota State Fair concert that's almost sold out is Ludacris and T-Pain, and you're covering this story, and you just said it right now, if I'm interested in this — that's interesting to me immediately. The fact that MPR is covering that, even to me, that's new and fresh and exciting and so is that the energy that you're bringing to Reverb? Is that you are aware of the new and popping stuff? Is that a part of the goal, too?

Feven Gerezgiher 

Yeah, I think so. Our team in general, we look for stories that relate to young people and that also include them or making sure we're speaking to them and talking about issues that matter to them. That was a really quick little story about what's going on at the state fair. But also, to those people who grew up with T-Pain and Ludacris, we're like, "oh my god, I can't believe that they're coming here."

Sanni Brown 

And that it's a sold-out show! (Laughs) It's very validating as a music head. It is.

Feven Gerezgiher 

So I think part of it is just like, we get to bring ourselves into our work. So if I care about this girl group that's coming to Mall of America, or I'm like "let's include T-Pain music into my radio spot version of this too" because I'm like, whoever is out there, I hope they appreciate this nugget (both laugh). I hope you notice the detail.

Sanni Brown 

I believe people do!

Feven Gerezgiher 

And it's just having fun and just being mindful that news isn't just serious, depressing stuff. It's also a reflection of our community. We also have fun things that we get to enjoy.

Sanni Brown 

Boom, right there. That's perfect. I love that you said that. In studio with Feven Gerezgiher, reporter and producer for MPR News Reverb and here for the young folks. You mentioned just a minute ago, this is a good segue, we gonna get into some music right now, but you mentioned a minute ago that news is not all depressing and things like that, and it's something that you can use. There's a benefit to it. And this is the message that you're sending to young people. I want to follow up on that after this break. You are tuned into The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. You are in Music Class with Feven Gerezgiher, reporter and producer for MPR News, putting us on about what we going to be talking about, how we going to keep the young folks involved and helping them understand that news is useful for them. So stay tuned. It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life.

Sanni Brown 

It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life, in studio with you. Feven Gerezgiher with me, reporter and producer for MPR News Reverb and covering stories like Minnesota State Fair concert being the only State Fair concert that sold out. You went from being interested in community, this community project in media, and it led from one thing to another, you're helping young people along the way, boom, you're now in this position. And now you are basically changing the vibe and feel of news media for young people. And so what's the most important thing right now that you want to get out for young people to know? What's going on?

Feven Gerezgiher 

I mean, the election is the big thing, because that is something I think we hear and we see the research, that people feel like their vote doesn't matter.

Sanni Brown 

Yeah, and I'm hearing young people are saying this.

Feven Gerezgiher 

They're like, "I don't really believe in it" or just like "I tried it" or "I just don't feel like these candidates represent me fully." And so part of our work is just trying to make it as accessible as possible and also adding context to "what are the things that are at stake?" And "how can you get involved?" And just trying to make it as easy as possible to participate.

Sanni Brown 

Wow. That's a big job (laughs).

Feven Gerezgiher 

You know, you start somewhere. So our big thing that we're sharing is our voter guides, so we have a one stop shop on our website where you can see all of our political reporting. But there is also this really great feature that's like, build your ballot, so you can put in your address; it will show you what your ballot would look like. Who are all the candidates —

Sanni Brown 

Oh, wow! It's like a mock ballot. That would have been nice back in the day (laughs).

Feven Gerezgiher 

And our team, or our newsroom, asked a bunch of candidates across the state. So we have over 1200 candidates who responded to three questions. So you can learn a bit more about who they are, what they are trying to do, their top issues, and it's all in one place. And then for areas where there are predominantly Spanish, Somali or Hmong speaking populations, it's also translated for those communities. So yeah, just to have it be like, if you're last minute, walking up to your polls, you're like, "I don't even know. I'm just here for the sticker."

Sanni Brown 

And by the way, young people, that happens more often than not. (Laughs) It does, because we also live in a society where we got to pay bills and things like that, and it's so easy to get caught up in that. But this is letting you know that there's this resource out here to help you be involved. So you said something about election guides. What's that about? What is that? Is that the mock ballot that you're talking about? Or what guidance are we getting?

Feven Gerezgiher 

Yeah, it is the build your ballot. And there are like stories about, "what does a county commissioner do?" Or "what does this position even mean?"  There are a bunch of judges. So even being like, "what is the importance of these judges?" It's like, "why should you care about voting for this?" So as much as possible, trying to share the information that we know and kind of get that out there. And you know, to be clear, this isn't exclusively for young people. It's for everyone.

Sanni Brown 

Man, I could have used this in my 20s, all through the 20s (laughs).

Feven Gerezgiher 

Another ethos of Reverb is meeting people where they're at. If they're online, if they're on social media, not expecting them to be listening in to the radio at a certain time to hear it. But when you're ready, it's there. And we know that people are busy. They have things that they're trying to do, like you said. It's there. It's concise, and not assuming people know everything and not shaming them for it. Because even what I know I'm still Googling.

Sanni Brown 

Even to this day, I have tried to get my fiancé more involved. And he says that he's learned a lot about the whole process just listening to me because of my mentors, and I do remember when I first started voting, it really is overwhelming. What do you see as the biggest challenge? When you did your survey, what did people pick the most as the biggest challenge in voting? Or what did they want to know the most about?

Feven Gerezgiher 

You know, I haven't been too involved on that side. There are the questions that we sent to candidates, and then we do have an ongoing place where people can submit their questions. I think something that I always remind people is there are so many other things to vote for besides the presidential candidates. Because people are like, "I don't want to get involved. I don't —" They have their feelings on it, and that's perfectly valid, it's never judging. But it's also like, there are races on the state level, or very local, like your city council, that are sometimes decided by 10 votes. That's one classroom, that's like a soccer team. And those people are going to make decisions regardless of how you participate. And so I'm always like, you might as well try, might as well put it out. And then when people see that you turn out, they make sure to reach out to you next time. Because they're like, "this is a voter I want to influence, and I want to make sure I'm addressing them with my platform." And then there are also other things, like there's a constitutional amendment asking voters if they want a portion of the lottery proceeds to go towards conservation, clean water, and investing in our parks. The Minnesota Legacy Amendment is such a big thing that is funding so many arts organizations. It helps fund some of our work; that was a huge deal. And that also is something that voters decided on a long time ago. And those are the kinds of things that have a real impact on your day to day, and they're not presidential candidates. And that's where you also have a lot of influence, because it's just you and your neighbors, really, who are making that choice.

Sanni Brown 

You're right. When I was young, I did feel like it was just the presidential election. I remember, I went to St. Louis for radio school. I remember voting there, and I remember being like, "oh, it's not just the presidential election." (Laughs) So that's dope. Where can young people find this information? How can they get access to this?

Feven Gerezgiher 

On our website, mprnews.org/election. We have a link on our Instagram that's mprnews. And on TikTok, we also post some of our videos that will take you back to that website, because it has the most comprehensive coverage and all of the links that you want to follow. If people are looking for a third party source on where to vote, how to register, and all of that, the Minnesota Secretary of State is overseeing that process, and they have the most up to date info. If you are having issues with your polling place, they can help that. And something cool that passed recently is that, I think starting next year or so, or 2026, college campuses can be able to request a polling place on campus. Or somewhere closer.

Sanni Brown 

Is that new? I thought high schools and elementaries did that.

Feven Gerezgiher 

Yes. So polling places are usually like in your neighborhood, some place really close. But they have been making this effort to engage younger voters. So they hired someone earlier this year who's like, complete goal is just "how can we get younger voters?" And I think part of that legislation, or more recent one, was to make it easier for college students as well. So they're just like, "if y'all want a polling place on campus, we will make that happen if you request it." There are other things, like automatic voter registration now. If you apply for a state ID, you're automatically registered to vote. 16, 17-year-olds can pre-register, so just trying to make it as easy as possible, but you can always go same day when you're at your polling place, if you're going to vote early with the ballot, or, at an early vote location, it is very easy to register, to walk in. The Secretary of State is just a place where you can get info on what documents you need, or if you need to double check anything.

Sanni Brown 

So if you want to be involved, there are ways for you to be involved. I remember the desire to want to be involved when I was younger, and just feeling so confused, and also kind of being persuaded by other people, and it not really being my choice. So I'm excited about anything that's letting young folks know, like, "hey, get up. You can say something!" Especially about the world around you. You have a say so. It's really empowering. And I'm happy when young people actually get in on it, because that's how I felt when I found out.

Feven Gerezgiher 

And what's been really exciting is to see, in my two years at MPR and covering different stories, really the impact that young people have. So I think it was 2023, we swore in our First Gen Z state legislators. So there are two that I had profiled, and to see them have an impact and grow in their voice, and they're introducing legislation. The North Star Promise, that is this new state funded scholarship that will help cover tuition and fees for lower income Minnesotans. That was in part pushed for by student advocates; they represented two and four year community, technical colleges, state universities. And they were like, "we need college to be more affordable." And they are also pushing for more accommodations for students on campuses, and trying to get the FAFSA to be part of a high school graduation requirement, because it's seen that if you complete the FAFSA like you will — if you get financial aid, that just improves your chances of actually continuing on to college, according to some data. And so those are all things where students are like, "hey, this is a need that we have, and we're gonna step up and run for office." And they win.

Sanni Brown 

And also, I want young people listening to stay involved, stay in the know, that's the genuine idea of news, is to make sure that you're staying in the know about what's happening around you, to know that young people are ushering in change like that lets you know that other young people had a say in that, and they're making it happen. So hey, get involved. Feven, is there anything you want to leave young people with before we get out of here?

Feven Gerezgiher 

There are just so many different ways of living life. And I always remember that I'm not alone in anything, any experience you have, honestly — a lot of others are going through it, not to be like "you're basic." And there's no one path towards your dream job, or how you want to get there. And so just always keeping in mind that what's for you will come.

Sanni Brown 

But when it come to voting, you can get up and say something (laughs).

Feven Gerezgiher 

You know, it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. But, you know, I'm not gonna tell anyone what to do.

Sanni Brown 

I know, but we is gonna tell you to get involved. Yeah, we can at least say that though (laughs).

Feven Gerezgiher 

Yeah, and check out mprnews.org/elections (laughs).

Sanni Brown 

Absolutely. Thank you, Feven. I appreciate you coming in and and putting the kids on man, for real.

Feven Gerezgiher 

Thank you for having me again!

Sanni Brown 

Alright, y'all. Hey, I got a couple more songs to play for you today, because we still in music class and still got to talk about the playlist. So don't go any place. I'm going to finish out the show. Thank you, Feven. One more time, it's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life.

Dammntc stopped by to talk to Carbon Sound’s host Sanni about the beginnings of his music career making “type beats,” how reaching out to producers led to collaborations G Herbo, Yeat, and other artists, and a whole lot more.

Sanni Brown 

It's The Message Carbon Sound, Music for Life — in-studio, yes baby, in-studio, I have a local artist. Y'all know I be so excited about our local musicians, and he is a Minnesota producer, rapper, and vocalist. You done stuff with Yeat, from what I'm looking at, you done stuff with G Herbo, Roddy Ricch, Key Glock, okay, in the building. Carbon Sound, The Message audience, welcome Dammntc, yay!

Dammntc 

Yessir, appreciate it. Appreciate you guys having me.

Sanni Brown 

Welcome, man. Welcome, welcome. So off the mic, you said TC is cool, right?

Dammntc 

Yeah.

Sanni Brown 

TC is cool, okay. But if people are looking for you, what should they look for?

Dammntc 

Look for Dammntc. On all platforms.

Sanni Brown 

Ok, alright. So, Minnesota, producer, rapper and vocalist? You got something for us real quick? (starts singing jokingly)

Dammntc 

(Both laugh) Not right now. You gotta catch me on my off day.

Sanni Brown 

Ahh okay. So quickly, your elevator speech let us know — because I'm new to you as well. I always love when we have new people in here, because it's like divulging another dope part of the Minnesota music scene. So tell us about who you are.

Dammntc 

Yeah, first, Dammntc — everyone call me TC for short, okay. So I've been a producer for seven years, taking it seriously for about seven years, but I always dibble and dabble in it. And I always been around music throughout my whole entire life, like watching my older brothers, when he used to have cassettes, rapping over cassettes and all that. That's like, how I really got into music, just seeing what they was doing, and it inspired me to do the same thing.

Sanni Brown 

Do you have any experience rapping over cassettes?

Dammntc 

Yeah.

Sanni Brown 

Ahh, so you know. Oh, wow. You have that experience of physical music. How does it feel not being around physical music like that anymore?

Dammntc 

It's different, but at the same time, being able to experience that, and then coming into the generation where it's streaming, seeing the both side of it, it's kind of like the best thing that has happened to me, because I'm seeing how music is transitioning from CDs, from the cassette players, to the Walkman to now, all you gotta do is go on your phone, go to Apple Music and Spotify.

Sanni Brown 

Isn't that isnane? I was just talking about that on the show a couple weeks ago. When I was thinking about albums, our classic albums, and how there's a Side A and Side B, and you you mark when to turn the tape over, that was a whole thing that we dealt with. And you started out with the tapes, moved to the CDs, and you're watching them do this. So then you start from the tapes, you're moving through this music, and then what happens?

Dammntc 

At first, I used to do a lot of rapping, back in junior high, I did like a talent show. And that's how I really got my name, "Too Cool" they called me. So I did like a talent show in the ninth grade with a couple of my friends —

Sanni Brown 

Wait wait wait. Why'd they call you too cool?

Dammntc 

Because I'm just too cool. Like, I'm just a cool person, because I'm very good with people. I'm a friendly guy, and I'm a people person. So people tend to gravitate towards me with my energy, and how I approach a lot of things. So just from that, and then performing in the ninth grade, in front of like, the whole school, and then my artist name was Young J Mr. Too Cool at the time. So then that's how the emcee, that's how they introduced me. And then from there, from ninth grade all the way to I graduated high school, and even till now, whenever I see people from high school, the first thing they call me is too cool.

Sanni Brown

Too cool. Okay, so we can't call you too cool while you're in here today?

Dammntc 

Nah, you can just call me TC for short (both laugh).

Sanni Brown 

But I feel like they dubbed you that, it's so important. Ok, so you perform, and people like, "okay, you that guy, you too cool." So then what happens after that?

Dammntc 

And then I never took it serious.

Sanni Brown 

Pause — so you get on the stage, you get a great reception, and you walk away??

Dammntc 

Yeah, I just left (laughs). Because I was always in sports, so I used to play basketball and football.

Sanni Brown 

So that was calling you at the same time. So while you're in sports, you're kind of like dabbling in music a little bit, is what it sounds like. So then you not taking it serious, because you in sports. So then what happens with sports, and how did you navigate back into music?

Dammntc 

So I used to play football, and I was pretty good at football, and then I quit football to play basketball. Because music always been around, it was just always there. I always had people around me who would be artists. And then when I started getting into producing, was kind of like, what changed everything.

Sanni Brown 

And you're still playing basketball while you're starting to take producing seriously. Okay, were you like producing people on the team?

Dammntc 

Yeah, that's exactly how it went. So a couple of my buddies, they was recording. They was like, "yo, we need a beat." So I'm like, "I got you." Send them a couple beats, they put it on SoundCloud, and then it just started going from there. But I just never took it serious. It was like, sometimes the things that you don't take serious, that you're really good at, because it just comes second nature, and it's just always there.

Sanni Brown 

Please say that again for the young folks that may be listening.

Dammntc 

The things that you don't take serious, that you just naturally good at, is what really gonna get you to where you want to go when you actually put your whole focus and mind to it. But that was just me; I was just in sports. I played in college with basketball, Anoka Ramsey, went to a college in Kansas, play a couple years over there. Then I went to NDSU to finish out schooling and stuff. But my final year with playing basketball and trying to figure out what I wanted to do in life, like I said, music was just right there. I had my laptop, and I was like, "man, you know what? I'm just finna lock in and just see where I can take this." And then the first year or two, I just start seeing the growth. Started getting a lot of streams just from beats, like instrumentals, because I used to do like, type beats.

Sanni Brown 

What does that mean? I'm a little older. What does that mean, "type beat"?

Dammntc 

So type beats — let's say you make R&B, or you make specific songs, for example, an artist like a Gunna, or just any artist and their sound, and their style. So a producer will hear that sound, and kind of like mimic it, or use it as an inspiration. Like, I would make a bee cater to that artist. So if that artist hear that beat, they'll be like, "oh, that's something that I can probably make a record to.

Sanni Brown 

I didn't know that's what type beat meant! I thought it was just the under instrumental of that particular song. So you can craft a sound that sounds similar to certain artists? Dang.

Dammntc 

So that's how I started. I started doing a lot of type beats and just put it out on YouTube. And then reaching out to different artists, sending them beats and all that. And then I got my first song that went viral on SoundCloud, and then also on YouTube. I woke up this morning, and then I just got a tweet from a random person, like, "hey, this artist just used your song" And then from there, me and that artist started talking, and then the first song ended up having like six million views on YouTube.

Sanni Brown 

Ok we're gonna pause right there on that moment (Dammntc laughs). This is The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. I love stories like this, where your greatness is just sitting right there, and all you got to do is just lock in. I love those stories so much. Okay, so if you just tuning in, this is The Message, Carbon Sound, Music for Life. I am Sanni your host, and we are in music class. And every now and again, we get to have people from the Minnesota music scene come in and tell us how they became who they are. And in studio, I have Dammntc, better known as TC. Used to be known as too cool, okay, I like that, but he grown now, you got to call him TC. And so boom, you get your first viral hit. You produce your first viral beat. You just casually said six million. Just gingerly rolled off your tongue, six — I can't even get 16. So you get six million on this type beat. Dang. What do you do? What are you thinking?

Dammntc 

So now I'm just thinking, like, how I can keep this going, keep the momentum going. So me and a specific artist, we did like, two songs. So one of the songs hit like, six million, and the other song hit three million. That was a music video. Each of them was a music video on YouTube, and that's the time I was going by Too Cool Beats. So that was my first producer name. And then I used to put a lot of type beats on my SoundCloud and on my Youtube. They was ranging from like 20k streams to like 200k streams, just on instrumentals. So I'm seeing all the progress within what I'm doing, and then that's the time I start diving deeper into the industry, working with, like, multi-platinum producers, Grammy nominated producers.

Sanni Brown 

Did they reach out to you? You reach out to them?

Dammntc 

Everything was just reaching out. Because that's the biggest thing — for me, I consider myself be a low-key person —

Sanni Brown 

I'm getting that vibe off you. That's why they stay too cool. You got a real chill vibe.

Dammntc 

But with what you're trying to do, you have to go out to places, you have to reach out. If you want to take things to another level, you got to get out your comfort zone. You can't be like "I'm just low key. I'm just a chill person." Because for me, I have an on and off switch. When there's times where I need to amp it up a little bit, I will do it. I'm a good observer. I like, observing the scene and seeing where I can play my role and where I can play my part. And that's how I operate, and that's how I maneuver through life in general. But yeah, I was just reaching out to different producers, collabing, and that's how I got the G Herbo placement. That's how I got a lot of my other stuff.

Sanni Brown 

Okay, boom, Imma pause you right there. It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. We gotta go to break I gotta play some music. Is there anything you want me to play Mr. Producer?

Dammntc 

Hey, surprise me (both laugh).

Sanni Brown 

Don't go nowhere it's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. I have Dammntc in studio with me today discussing his entrance — music was like, "come on, baby, come on" and we gonna discuss how he got this G Herbo placement, we're gonna get into this Key Glock because I like Key Glock, we're gonna get into Yeat, all that's coming up next on The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life.

Sanni Brown 

It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. Sanni here reminding you you're in music class, in case you just been enjoying the music too much and you forget, it happens. I am in studio with Dammntc, also known as TC, a Minnesota producer, rapper and vocalist, but he said he ain't doing no notes today so go ahead and chuck that idea and wish. But last we left off was, boom, you started out with watching your cousins and older brothers with the tapes, and then that kind of moved the CDs. And you like, "Nah, I'm doing my basketball football thing." And while you doing football, you hearing your boys rap. And they like, "hey, we need a beat." You throw them a beat. You release the beat. It goes viral. Now you're reaching out to certain people and boom, now we're talking G Herbo?? How'd that go down?

Dammntc 

So I got my first place in with G Herbo, with a producer named Lil Mexico Beatz. He was really like his producer, that he worked with consistently. Because you got to do your research with everything that you do. If you in any field of work, especially within this industry, you got to be willing to do your research. You got to be a student of the game to understand how certain things happen and how people get certain things done. So I was just always doing my research, seeing what producer is tied in with certain artists that I can reach out to work with. So I'm doing all that, and I just reached out to him. And to this day we're very close, we're very tight. I could hit him up any single time, like, "hey, let's do a collab. Let's do this." And he's always willing. So that's how I got the G Herbo placement.

Sanni Brown 

I feel like the common thing that I hear in the music world is, "don't be reaching out to people. It's weird." Do you think it's because you had the viral hit? Like, you look serious? What made you not look weird? (laughs) Imma keep it a buck when I was getting into radio, I had to reach out too. And there was a few moments where I got it wrong and I looked weird, and I had to learn, like you said, become a student of the game. But now I constantly hear about people don't want you dropping their music and stuff like reaching out like that. So how did you not make it look weird?

Dammntc 

The one thing I would tell a lot of artists, don't send like music links to people that you don't know. Some people will send you music links, and you don't even know them. I feel like the biggest thing is just like, "hey, I'm a producer. I would love to collab with you."

Sanni Brown 

Be a human.

Dammntc 

That's literally what it is. Just be a human. Be like, "yo, I love your work. How can we work? If you got a fee, I will pay." Just being willing to approach the situation where, like, "I'll pay for your work. I'll pay for your time because I know what you're doing, you're good at it, and you're serious at it, and you have the credentials that shows and back it up." So if I'm paying somebody for that, it's like, I'm good, I'm willing to do that. So if you're reaching out, you just got to be a human. Just be like, "hey, how you doing? I would love to work with you." And if they reply they do, they don't you just keep moving.

Sanni Brown 

I like that you positioned yourself as, "can I work with you?" Not like, "can you give me a handout?" kind of thing. Do you feel like that energy makes a difference too? That you're like, "hey, I really like what you're doing. Here's what I'm doing. Let's get together and work." So that's better than showing up like, "hey, help a brother out. I'm at the local college station." (both laugh) Okay, so it's how you presented yourself. You presented yourself as, almost like a peer. That takes a lot of confidence, though, bro.

Dammntc 

You have to, confidence is key (Sanni laughs). You gotta have the confidence, man. In everything. You gotta have the confidence.

Sanni Brown 

Okay, so is that what led to all of these other — like Yeat and Famous Dex and Key Glock, Roddy Ricch. How did these things happen? How'd these collaborations happen?

Dammntc 

All that was through Lil Mexico. Every time I hit him up, he'd be like, "yo, I'm working with Roddy right now. I need so and so" or "oh, yeah. I'm definitely saying this to Key Glock fasho" and that's how we build our relationship. Even to this day I could hit him up right now and be like, "Yo, I got some loops for you. Let's collab on something." You know, "I got some artists that I'm working with. I can send it out to them. I've got some underground artists that aren't working with. I can send it out to them too."

Sanni Brown 

This is what I want to know. So what was you thinking when Lil Mexico — what's your first thought when you realize he reaches back out to you? What's your first thought? And how do you contain yourself? (laughs) How do you handle that? And I'm saying that for young folks that this happens to, how do you handle when you reach out for your future, and your future's like, "what's up??"

Dammntc 

I was hype. But I wasn't like "ahhh!" (freaking out)

Sanni Brown 

I do — I turn up when the opportunities come (both laugh), but you too cool. I forgot.

Dammntc 

You know, like you've been there before, you know what I'm saying.

Sanni Brown 

I hear you. No, for real, yeah.

Dammntc 

But I was definitely hyped.

Sanni Brown 

Did you need a moment? Was you ready? Did you need an hour? How did it work? How do you handle that?

Dammntc 

Because when I sent him the collab back, there were some things I wanted to change on the beat, and I was like, "yo, can you change this? And all this?" And then he was like, "yeah, I got you." And then when I reach out to him again, because he ain't send me the beat back, so I'm like, "have you changed it yet?" He was like, "oh, nah bro, Herbo said that he's gonna do it." So I just left it how it is. It was a big surprise, so I'm like, "man, thank you." I never really asked him "yo, can you send us out to the people that you work with?" just like, "let's collab, let's make something, and then I'm gonna send it out. You send it out."

Sanni Brown 

And that makes him look good as a producer. Wow, that's so cool. You just gave us insight — I'm sorry that's really cool. I know you too cool, or whatever. But that's so cool because when we just take in the music, we don't understand how these things happen. So it's really cool to have somebody on the Minnesota music scene be able to explain, "hey, I'm a producer. I make beats. I'm that guy. I reached out with folks, and they reached back." That's magical. I know you too cool, but that's magical, man. So what projects do you have? Because I'm sure that probably made you more confident. So then what did that lead to?

Dammntc 

That led to me rebranding who I was as a producer, because at first I was doing type beats a lot. And then the crazy thing is, there was one time — my Twitter was linked to my YouTube. So every time I post a beat, it would register on my Twitter, like, Too Cool Beats just released this video. So this older person, don't know who he was, he commented on my tweet. He was like, "that's why you don't have your own sound. You're mimicking, you're copying other people's sound." And at first, I'm 21, 23 doing all this. So as a young person, I'm trying to figure out, like, "man, who you talking to??" I don't even know you." So I'm thinking from the young perspective. But as further on as I got in my career, I realized what he was saying was true, I didn't have my own sound. I was literally taking inspiration from other people, but making it exactly like it. So when I figure out, I gotta rebrand, I gotta change my identity and change who I am, if I really want to take this producing thing to a whole nother level, and that's how I got the Dammntc.

Sanni Brown 

So what is Dammntc? Oh, damn, Too Cool! I love that. I'm sorry I needed meaning, and I got it. You gave it to me TC. So that's what that means. Wow (laughs). Okay, so Dammntc, what's up? So we got album — please tell me this, this dropped this year. I love —

Dammntc 

i <3 SACH!E

Sanni Brown 

Let's talk about the work now. What's that about? Because this is brand new, you just dropped this this year, 2024, and is this just beats?

Dammntc 

Nah, this is my brother's album that we collabed on, because he passed away, like, February.

Sanni Brown 

Oh no, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

Dammntc 

Appreciate it. So he was gonna do an album, with like 20 songs, and he already had most of the songs. So when he passed away, I was able to get his computer and get all his songs. So I was able to basically engineer the whole entire album and then release it under my name and also his name. It's forever on my profile and then also on his,so whenever I release anything, those streams gonna come exactly to his album as well.

Sanni Brown

Literally Music for Life.

Dammntc 

Yeah, fasho.

Sanni Brown 

Dang man, that's dope. Oh, wow, you're gonna make me cry. Thank you, man. So listen to i <3 SACH!E. Okay, that's beautiful, man. I like that. I love that a lot. And then tell us about B4 We Were Friends, the EP. You dropped all three of these this year brother?? Dang, ok! (Both laugh)

Dammntc 

Trying to keep consistent. Just keep it going, you know?

Sanni Brown 

I see! So B4 We Were Friends, what's that about? What's the story behind that?

Dammntc 

So that was like a sequel to the main album Close Friends 4 Now. So that was like an EP, so I made that, and I was the main vocalist, I'm singing on this, rapping on this, everything, made the beats. So I made that whole entire like EP in like three days.

Sanni Brown 

Dang. Now that you've done that, what is that? I know Beyonce recorded B'Day in like a week. You hear that all the time, about artists recording an entire album in like — what is that? Is it just a wave of inspiration, and you just sat there with buckets and caught it all and then put it on wax??

Dammntc 

Yeah, it's definitely a wave of inspiration. Because at the time my album was supposed to release on July, Liberian Independence Day, July 26. But it was a lot of delay that was going on because I had to get a lot of things cleared. So I'm like, you know what man, I'm keeping a lot of my supporters waiting for this album, so I'm just finna release something that they can just listen to as the time go by. So that was an inspiration. I'm like, "man, I'm about to knock this out in like, three, four days." And just make a song every single day, and just pick from these seven songs and just release it. And then from there, have people listen to that until everything is ready for the album to officially be released.

Sanni Brown 

So you out here serving. I like that. I like that you prioritizing your fans. Don't leave them waiting. I love that. I am a student of entertainment, and I know you had to learn that one. They don't just give you that one. And then finally, Close Friends 4 Now. Because you said we did B4 We Were Friends, there was some delays, so you dropped that, and now we drop Close Friends 4 Now. So what's the energy and vibe and story behind this album?

Dammntc 

So that all stemmed from sach!e, because I was going to release my album on my birthday, but when he passed away on February, it kind of delayed a lot of stuff. So he was a motivation, inspiration for the whole entire album. Because before he passed away, he hung out with all his close friends, everyone that he loved, he just hung out with them. And I was hanging out with him for like, three weeks straight, back to back. And from that time frame, I'm like, "you know what, I'm just finna make an album" with that inspiration, where it's like Close Friends 4 Now, and that's why, on the cover art, everyone that's around me is mostly like people that I'm really close friends with. So that's where the inspiration came from.

Sanni Brown 

Wow, I love this, because we say Music for Life, and I think from the listeners perspective, you're "the music that helped my life" but you're a music maker. And you're making music that helps not only your fans — you clearly just said, "my fans is waiting, let me serve them" — but also it's Music for Life for you. So you're making music for yourself as well. Was that the plan? Did that happen just by accident?

Dammntc 

Yeah I mean, for me, every art that I put out, it has to me something. It got to mean something to me, because if it means something to me, it's gonna mean something to the world when people listen and when they hear it. So that's like my approach with everything, even if I'm making music for myself or just making music for the people that support me. So I always see the two sides of music in general.

Sanni Brown 

I think when you just consume the music, you just think, "where my music??" But I think when you're making it, you just have this wider — you could look at the chess board more. Wow, this is — Dammntc! (Both laugh) So I presume you're promoting this, you're performing this, Close Friends 4 Now. This is what we're on right now. This the energy we're on right now. Do we have any performances we need to be on the lookout for? Any projects associated with this we need to be on lookout for so we can support you?

Dammntc 

I got the deluxe that's releasing, early November, so got the deluxe for that. Got like five new songs for the Deluxe, that I know people love. So that's what I'm pushing right now. And then I'm releasing alternate versions of songs that people like a lot, and most of them were the songs that I did we Yeat. So I've been releasing, like, slower version, sped up versions, and I see that's been attracting a lot of people nowadays, within TikTok, or just in general. Now, people got a lot of options to what they want to listen to. If you want to listen to the original I got you, you won't listen to the slower version, I got you, sped up, I got you.

Sanni Brown 

I love your service mentality to this. I just saw something from Maxwell, he said he's not looking to be commercially successful, but culturally successful. And that's the energy I'm getting from you. And I like that. Dammntc! So where can we find you? Everywhere Dammntc? Thank you so much for coming in here. Is there anything I may have left out? I want to make sure you get the support you need. Are you from here?

Dammntc 

Oh, no, I'm not from here. I'm from Liberia.

Sanni Brown 

Wow, wow. This is awesome. Thank you for coming in, man, dang. Nothing else? No other projects? You ain't singing nothing we can support?

Dammntc 

Nah not yet, but there's more on the way. More on the way trust me, you're gonna have music videos, everything. We coming.

Sanni Brown 

I love it. I love your story. I love what you're doing in the Twin Cities. I got to make sure I let folks know. TC, Dammntc, thank you for coming in today, man.

Dammntc 

For sure, I appreciate you guys.

Sanni Brown 

Thank you so much. All right y'all, make sure you check out this video on our YouTube and as well as carbonsound.fm, Dammntc, thank you one more time. We're gonna finish out music class today. I think I got a little bit of room for some music, so don't go nowhere. It's The Message, Carbon Sound, Music for Life.

On Friday, Sept. 13, Carbon Sound got the chance to chat with legendary Minnesota artist André Cymone about his late mother, Bernadette Anderson. Bernadette was a tireless advocate for civil rights and youth engagement in the community and crowned nicknames like “Queen Bernie” and “The Mother of the Minneapolis Sound.”

On this day, a block party took place celebrating the renaming of Russell Avenue North between Plymouth Avenue North and 12th Avenue North, a section of the neighborhood where Anderson lived, as Bernadette Anderson Way.

André recounts what made his mother so special to a community, as well as fabled jam sessions in her basement with other Minnesota legends, keeping funk alive, and so much more.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

John Kueppers: André, what brings you into town today?

André Cymone: Funny you should ask! They're honoring my mother, Bernadette Anderson, they're honoring her with a street name, Bernadette Anderson Way on the street that I grew up on. She's had an amazing life, an amazing journey. And so I'm here to celebrate that and to hopefully make a statement with my family and the community to really make this day a really special day in her honor.

For those who might not know, who was Bernadette Anderson to a community?

That's a lot, that's a whole lot. Because she was a pioneer of so many different things. Youth groups, she ran the YWCA, She had a kids teen club named after her to keep kids kind of off the streets, and had several different programs, food programs, she was on a lot of different boards of community, active type boards like PTA, the KMOJ board. She was on several different boards. She spoke and marched and prayed with everybody in the community. Anytime there was situations — strife, contention with different factions of community organizers or police, or you name it, she was right there marching and speaking with her counterparts to make sure that the community was well represented. And then obviously she opened our home to myself, to sort of keep me off the streets and out of trouble as much as I can. If ever there were a perspective of her life that could be made into a film (laughs), hers would be one. And my friends, I had a variety of friends that I brought into the house. One of them was Prince. He came to live with us, probably from about eighth grade to when he got his record deal. And then I had various other friends that were really, really pivotal in the community as far as music was concerned. I just visited one last night down at Bunker's, David Eiland. We got a chance to hang out, and I got a chance to listen to him play, and he's going to join us today at the event. But I mean, Morris Day, you name it. There's a lot of different musicians, Terry and Jimmy came by at some point. Just about everybody came by our house at some point and either played music or ping pong or basketball. Sometimes we'd play basketball right in the street or in the backyard. It was a fun-loving experience when you came to my house. My father would always say — because my father didn't live with us then, he lived about a block away, but he would say, "no matter what time I come over here, it always seems like it's three in the afternoon." It could be like one in the morning, and it seems like it's three in the afternoon, because there's always something going on.

Was it ever your mom being like, "okay, cut the music just for 10 minutes." Or was it always "let's keep it going"?

I mean, there was just so much going on. You have to understand, my mother was kind of enjoying her own life, because she got married at 15, and started having kids. And she had six kids, so she raised six kids. And then once she was "free," she felt like, "you know what? I need to live." So she went back to school and got an education, and was always busy in the community. But she had friends and card clubs and so there was always just stuff going on. There was just a lot going on. She really made our home, I don't want to say a community center, because it wasn't — well, you know, for all intent purposes. She was just beautiful. It was really a special upbringing, special time, great time to grow up, great environment to grow up in.

I have more questions about Bernadette, but before that, I wanted to ask about how today came together too. Members of Flyte Tyme, Sounds of Blackness, Mint Condition, are going to be here today. How did that all come about?

I have a relatively large family, and the spirit of my mother lives in pretty much all of us. Because one of her statements is "get in there, you got to do stuff. If you don't get in the fight, you can't win the fight." And she would always say, "anybody can start a fight, but everybody can't finish it." So my sisters are powerhouses, my nieces are powerhouses, my nephews are powerhouses, my wife is a powerhouse. Everybody really jumped in. My sister in laws, I mean, everybody has pitched in. One of my nieces Tiara, she's been on a different level, really kind of plugging. It's been all hands on deck. LaTrisha Vetaw, Bobby Joe Champion, a lot of people have really come together to make this happen, but it's just been teamwork. It's really kind of how we grew up, the community coming together with family, making this happen. Everybody reached out to whoever they felt like they needed to reach out to, to say, "hey listen, we want to make this happen." And I think it started, if I'm not mistaken — we tend to celebrate my mother's birthday, so we usually come in town and hang out. And I think somewhere along there, somebody said, "hey, we should make this a reality." And so we all got on it, and started doing what we could do to make that happen.

That's incredible. And I'm hearing some old school jam sessions are going to come out. What is an old school jam session first and foremost, and what was her favorite music that's going to be incorporated into this?

Well, an old school jam session is, my mother would come down in the basement when we would be practicing or working on our own music. And she'd say, "what's that?" And she'd say, "you need to play something like this" or "you need to play something like that." And she'd throw out these suggestions, these unsolicited suggestions that nobody asked for (laughs), but yeah, she would throw that out, and before we knew it, we were doing stuff that we wouldn't normally do. My mom, her musical palette was very eclectic. So everything from the blues, so we're going to be jamming on some blues, some of her favorite songs, like "Clean up Woman," "I'll Take You There," Sly & The Family Stone, there's a nice little collection of songs. The band, we didn't get a chance to rehearse or anything like that, and so I'm trusting, because all these musicians are amazing musicians. So I just said, "hey, we're going to treat this like a jam session, like we used to do back in the day." Me and Prince used to do this all the time. So for us, it's a normal thing. It doesn't have to be perfect. It's not meant to be perfect. It's just meant to be entertaining and fun. I stress that, just have fun. Because at the end of the day, music should be fun. And if you're good at what you do, how can you not have fun?

So your mother's suggestions in that basement, solicited or not, do you think that helped contribute to this title as "The Mother of the Minneapolis Sound?" What other qualities of her contributed to that crown?

Well that is definitely one. The other is my mother's eclectic taste in music. Some of her musical favorites were things we weren't even supposed to listen to. She would always say, "y'all get out of here. This is grown folks music." And it's interesting now, because I guess older folks try to emulate or connect to, assimilate younger fashion, music, whatever. My mom and her crew, they were not having that (laughs). We looked at their musical expression as special. We wanted to be more like that. It was like they had this private club of music that we weren't privy or allowed to be in. And now it's completely flipped. But yeah, it was just a lot of stuff, Snatch And The Poontangs, which is probably some group that nobody ever heard of, Rudy Ray Moore, and a lot of very interesting, colorful groups that back then, took pride in being different. One of the things that I think my mother helped us understand, which I think was a very serious part of it, is she would let you know who entertainers were and who artists were, so you could differentiate as a musician, which lane you wanted to go down. Because she said, "oh, that's an artist. So and so and so and so is an artist. See, they can they can paint, and they can color, and they can create music that will do this and do that," and she'll paint this beautiful picture about the music that this particular artist. "Now they're just an entertainer. They just entertain. And somebody else probably creates all their stuff. They just go out and do whatever they're told," or "they're a great musician, but they're not an artist." She would have these conversations, her and my brother. Everybody in my house was a critic of one sort or another (laughs), either a music critic or you name it, but it was a great place, unbelievable place to grow up in.

And that even feels like a little microcosm of the greater Twin Cities area, because there are plenty of critics here. And once you win over this community, then it's like, how can you fail?

Yeah well that was kind of our mentality. If you can actually win over my household, the rest of the world is a piece of cake (laughs). First Avenue became our goal, because it seemed like it took us a minute to get the First Avenue crew and all of that in our win column, if you want to say. Because we played First Avenue quite a few times, and we would travel, we'd play there, and it was a lukewarm thing, and then we'd tour, and we'd come back, but we finally had our moment where we conquered First Avenue. And it was a beautiful thing for all of us, definitely for Prince and myself.

And before conquering First Avenue, I know on top of the musical influences your mother gave you, she gave you opportunities to perform. She would gig you, whether it was the Grand Central days or otherwise, tell me about that.

Well, there's a picture that surfaced recently, of us playing one of my mother's gigs. I think it's at the groundbreaking at the YWCA, I think it's the one down here. My mother would just say, "listen, I need you guys to play this show. You're a band, right? I need you there. You need to be there by this time" and whatever. And she'd give us all the particulars and she'd play, something like — she'd give us a basic outline of what to perform. And she would do that a lot. That was the beauty of the communities, people giving you opportunities. But she was definitely one of the major people to give us opportunities and places to play, and that's why she got the tag “Mother of the Minneapolis Sound,” because she gave other bands opportunities. Like, "why don't you get a couple other bands to come, it's a big event." And so it was just beautiful. She's just a beautiful person all the way around.

And I can see that through anything I've researched about her, and what you're telling me right now. So we had "Mother of the Minneapolis Sound," but we also have "Queen Bernie," where does that name come from? It makes total sense, but where does it come from?

Well because she's done so much in the community, but she used to be the queen of Juneteenth. There's pictures of her riding on the car with the top down, and that whole waving, and she was the queen of the neighborhood. I mean, she was the mother of the neighborhood. So many people have been touched and affected by my mother. There's people that are attorneys now because of my mother, having major job titles, and have gone on to do really great things. One of the things that my mother would do is, if she saw you, she would always read you, and if you had any kind of issue, she'd find out, she'd ask just the right questions. And she didn't make you feel bad, and by the time she finished, you left and you were floating on a cloud because whatever it was, she would exercise, she would bring it out, she'd expose it, you'd talk about it, and she'd tell you, "we're gonna resolve that." And if it was a family issue, she said I'm gonna talk to whoever that is. If it was bullying or teasing or whatever, whatever the issue was, she'd get to the bottom of it, and she'd go confront whatever, whomever that issue was, and so that issue was squashed. And she'd go down there, I can see her, hands on her hips, "come outside. No, no, no, I'm not talking to you." (Laughs) She was not anybody to play around with.

What made her so good at making people feel at home, and how do you make someone feel like family? It sounds like sometimes it's just an open ear.

I have to say my mother's story is an unbelievable story. It's an unbelievable journey, because at an early age, she was separated from her family. My grandparents were diagnosed with tuberculosis, so they were quarantined, and in the family, her six sisters were all separated, sent to different foster homes, and so she was in foster care. God only knows what happened in those environments. But I think it affected her to the point where she never wanted to see kids experience that, and she wanted to do everything she could to make sure that children had an opportunity and had somebody that they knew were fighting for them. And so she became that champion. And I think that carried on into working with the Y, working with kids. She always worked with kids. When I was in sixth grade, she worked at the school. She was always involved in the community, but definitely working with kids, right up until she passed. She retired, and she started working at the Street Academy, and continued. She could have just chilled, but she worked tireless. You always hear that title, "tireless worker," that is who my mother was.

From youngest sibling to youngest sibling, are there any special moments you share with your mother as the baby of the family?

Well, she never let me forget that (laughs). That's one thing. Actually, the interesting thing about being the youngest in my situation was I was allowed freedom. Because she had already been through five other kids, so it wasn't that I was an afterthought, she loved me and cared for me, but she let me kind of — and that was both good and bad because I got into a little bit of trouble here and there. The trouble that I got into was just curiosity. I was allowed to sort of be curious, so I could climb roofs, play in creeks, break dance on freeways (laughs). I think between my mother, my father, and my siblings, they gave me the mental parameters to not do anything too ridiculous, or if I did, make sure I didn't get caught (laughs).

Speaking of the fun of that time in your life, can you take me back to either one of the earliest jam sessions that would happen in your mother's basement, or just one of your favorite jam sessions in that basement?

There was so many. What was one of the fun jam sessions? It might have been when Morris first came down to my mom's basement and we had a chance to jam on some of our favorite songs. Because when we first jammed with Morris, when I first brought him in our band, we jammed on some stuff that he was more familiar with. But when he came over to my mother's house, we jammed on some stuff that I wanted to hear him play, that was I think a little outside of his comfort zone, for me to feel more at ease that he could handle some different kind of material. And he passed with flying colors (laughs). We jammed on some like, really funky — I was, at the time, really into War and Kool & The Gang. And so I just wanted to make sure he could cover a lot of that kind of stuff, some just really hard edge, Sly and the Family Stone funk. He's left handed, and he has a very unique drum style, and it's almost criminal that he's not playing drums for a band. Because Morris is still one of the baddest drummers I have ever played with. And I played with some really good drummers, I mean my cousin, Joe Lewis, Bobby Z, those are some amazing drummers. But I gotta say, Morris is right there with them.

Was there anybody that came down (to the basement) and just couldn't take the heat? Was anyone like, "ah, I can't — you're stretching me too much out of my comfort zone."

They would never wind up in my house. I mean, if you think about our band, my sister's in our band, I brought her in the band, William Doughty was an amazing percussionist, he was in our band, obviously Morris, me, and Prince. So it was a pretty amazing band. So in order for you to even get that far, I had to see you somewhere, and I had to bring you in. And if I saw you, you were already there.

Fast forward to present day, it's been a very funky summer for you. Can you tell me about some singles you've been dropping?

Yes, thank you for asking. I wanted to go back and do a funk album and just pay homage to the funk I grew up listening to that inspired me as a musician, and so I went back and sort of channeled Sly and the Family Stone, channeled the Ohio Players, channeled Parliament, Funkadelic, George Clinton, Bootsy, and I really kind of made an amalgamation of all of those things and put it on record. And I have like, 32 songs or something like that. And so we're gonna continue releasing them. We just cut some snippets, because I created a character for the album called "The Funk Forecaster." So he's sort of the philosopher, tour guide for the music. So he starts the album off and talks about "funky with a chance of cloudy" and talks about a lot of stuff along the way, and it's a character and a voice — it's a fun album. I wanted to make a really funky, fun album, and I wanted to put it out this summer, but we wound up getting really caught in doing what I think is more important, and it's honoring my mother. So it wound up taking a little more time than we thought, so we had to step back on that a little bit, but we did still release two songs. We used a released called "Hot Funk in the Summertime" which will be fine every summer. And then a song called "Funk is Alive" because funk is alive and well. I just want to bring it back, and it's really gotten amazing response. I've gotten calls, shout outs from a lot of different people in the music business. But they reached out, because they realized that this is what they thought speaks to the Minneapolis music vibe. So they're anxious to hear the rest of the record, and I'm anxious to get it out because I'm done. When you finish something, you want it to go out. But you know, the way the music business is right now, we want to just make sure that we are able to really connect to as many platforms as we can, because it's easy for people to assume that they know how to make a record blow up or work, but it's changed. Music Business has changed a lot, and so we want to really make sure that we reach out to all the different people, and really respect this record because I put a lot of work in it. I'm playing everything, I'm singing everything, it's top to bottom. There's a couple of friends that listen to it, they're like, "you're playing everything??" I just played it to my sister yesterday, and she was like, "I didn't know you could sing like that!" My family always says that. They always say "I didn't know you could play the piano. I didn't know you could play this. I didn't know you could sing like that. I didn't know you could write." I guess because I was up in the attic creating and I had what I used to call my little mad laboratory, and I would be up there always creating, concocting different music that they just didn't know. I guess they just thought I was always up there with girls, just most of the time (laughs). Anyway, sorry. 

That's really cool that the response has been so positive, and also seems like it's been a little bit of a thank you for keeping this music and this sound alive.

That was another reason why I thought it was important to do this because people's concept of the Minneapolis sound is interesting, and I understand. Again, it comes back to what my mother used to say, entertainers, artists, musicians, producers. I'm an artist, and I'm guilty (laughs), but I don't adhere to the constraints that some artists feel like they should fix themselves to. I can't do it. I love Joni Mitchell. I love Bob Dylan. I love Bob Marley. I love Taylor Swift. I love Kendrick Lamar. I love everything; it runs the gamut. I don't feel like I should be bound to anything. As an artist, I want to paint whatever palette, whatever picture I want to paint. And if somebody doesn't like it, that's okay. But that's who I am as an artist. And so now as an artist, I want to paint a funk picture, and it's going to be as true a picture, and it reflects everything that we were trying to do when we started. And I say we, meaning our group, because we were trying to get out of Minneapolis (laughs). And so we really created a sound to try to get us out of Minneapolis. And it wasn't just Prince, it was — mostly, really just Prince and myself, because we were the ones writing the songs. But I just want to really go back to realizing that.

And this idea of starting from nothing, basically.

Yeah, creating something from nothing has always been a theme of mine. Like a painter, it's a blank canvas, and I paint. And I love painting; it's a metaphor for the music that I create as well.

I just want to say thank you so much for your time and for coming in today. One lasting question I wanted to ask, what will Bernadette Anderson Way stand to serve? What will it symbolize?

A lot of young women, especially Black women, can look at my mother's journey and see, understand where she came from — because it was a very, very rough journey, there was nothing simple about it — and realize that you too, can overcome many, many obstacles and reach a point where people are respecting you, to the point where you have a street named after you, and that's what that says. It says a lot to the community, but all over the world. Because the beautiful thing about her blessings for us, myself, Prince, Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis, they're all a product of — it all came from that hub, and went out to the world. And my mother, sort of, giving that kiss, hug, whatever you want to call it, made it so that it's a worldwide thing. So it's not just relegated to Minneapolis, it's all over the world. And I get people from as far as Australia, Ethiopia, you name it, London, Paris, everywhere. People contact me and say, "man, it's such an honor that your mom is —" and this is all over the world. And that's a blessing. And my mother would be so proud. So I'm super proud, and I really have to thank everybody that made this happen.

Photos from Bernadette Anderson's street naming

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For more photos from the block party on Sept. 13 honoring Bernadette Anderson, click here.

Neda Kellogg sat down with Carbon Sound’s host Sanni and talked all things Project DIVA International: an organization that has been helping Black girls on their path towards self-discovery for 17 years now.

Sanni Brown 

It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life here, Sanni, your radio friend with my other friends. Okay? Because that's what good friends do. They pull up with good friends. In the studio with me today, somebody I admire and honor and go to all the time on the back end for advice, okay, miss Neda Kellogg, founder and executive director of Project DIVA International. Now pause before I go through the rest of the resume — when I met Miss Neda, it was just Project DIVA. It has now expanded to Project DIVA, not national, International. So I'ma let you sit with that weight right there. Also a mother, self-discovery coach, author, philanthropist, and student pilot, you up in the skies like that?? Neda Kellogg, welcome to the Carbon Sound studio! Yay!

Neda Kellogg 

Hey, sis. How you doin'? I'm so honored to be here with you. You know I love being in your space girl.

Sanni Brown 

So miss Neda has really been along the way with me for my media career.

Neda Kellogg 

Yes!

Sanni Brown 

You really have (laughs).

Neda Kellogg 

It's been phenomenal to watch.

Sanni Brown 

And I even remember when I first found Project DIVA, I remember I was like, "I want to help" because this is what happened. I did an audition for My Black is Beautiful, and I won first runner up, and I felt so bad. And miss Neda was right there, like, "girl, you are amazing." Y'all know how it is, when y'all be like, "I didn't win in the first place," (sad voice) and miss Neda was like, "nah, you that girl!" and you were right there to pick me right up. And I said, I like this lady. What she got going on? And I remember we kind of talked over the phone, over email, and then I finally met you. I met you at KMOJ in the studio, and I remember you told me about Project DIVA, and you said you want me to volunteer, and the rest is history. And I loved you so much. I brought my daughter along to Project DIVA, and so yeah, that's enough about all the things that you done for me. Can you please give us, give everyone who has a daughter, everyone who has a sister, everyone who is affected by some woman in their life, especially young ladies. Can you please let us know what Project DIVA International is? And don't be doing that humble stuff let us know (Neda laughs).

Neda Kellogg 

Okay, so ultimately, we usher girls to decide. That's the bottom line, right? We are a personal professional development organization for primarily Black girls in middle school and high school, and our goal is to ensure that they are stable emotionally, mentally and financially prior to graduating high school.

Sanni Brown 

Before graduating high school, that's big.

Neda Kellogg 

That's huge, that's huge. And we've done some changes; we've gone deeper.

Sanni Brown 

Yeah, I love that. Why before they graduate?

Neda Kellogg 

Because as women, we know the perils. We know emotionally and mentally, we've come up around some family members (laughs), right? That have made us question who we are. They're questioning coming out of high school. Most Black girls attend school learning a whole nother culture, but they are the leaders of their families who have to then deliver the culture that they're supposed to deliver to their children, right? So they're coming out in a double conundrum, just off the bat with that. And then financially we know — that's centuries old, right? And so instead of trying to figure out, "well, how do we get them financial literacy?" No, it's the habits that we know need to happen before they come out of high school, so ensuring that they're getting the emotional and mental tools, right? Middle school into high school, high school into adulthood, allows for the habits to be there and then financially, baby (Sanni laughs). When they know, "okay, my first home is maybe gonna be a duplex or a fourplex, because I can have my friends live in it," right? They're coming out being able to make decisions financially better, even with college. Like is college a bill that you want to take on? Because right now you have time to figure that out to where you can get support and find out how much your parents are going to support you, while they're all saying, "oh no, she going to school."

Sanni Brown 

Oh my goodness, miss Neda. That is so big that you just said that, because I am completely done with college and I'm trying to get into grad school, but I know what the student loan thing, everybody's — I'm hearing the conversations that I didn't hear when I was 18, and I was told, "go to college, go to college" and nobody said, "hey, how are you gonna pay for it?" (laughs)

Neda Kellogg 

Not just this, but your transportation back and forth if you go out of state, your necessities, your party time. Nobody talking about the rest of the finances that go with that, when you go to saying yes to a college bill.

Sanni Brown 

Yes. So you're exposing them to all of these — that brick wall that come after 18, if we keep it in a buck. Letting the girls know that if you're not prepared, it's a brick wall out there with your name on it, baby girl. Okay, so from when I had my daughter in Project DIVA, there was no pilot thing. I know you was dabbling yourself in piloting, so when did we bring in the aviation? And then, I love how you even, like it even transformed into international with the pilot part.

Neda Kellogg 

For me, I was at a one of our school clubs, and one of the babies said that she was going to be a pilot. And it just touched me, because I have always said that, but I never followed through with it. I just always loved aviation. So I took her down a journey that I then joined her on. She ended up no longer wanting to do it, but I stayed. And then doing that, understanding math differently, understanding science and how it relates to us in general, like us as humans, was mind blowing. And it was like, okay, if we could get girls interested in aviation, just on the fact of the math and the science, imagine how many other things, right? Because they all like to fly. They like to travel (both laugh). So why not make that the commonality, to get them invited into that world, for them to say yes or no, but then at least understand that there's all these different ways, whether it's cooking, there's math, sewing, there's math, like all the things that we're doing anyway, getting them to think differently around that subject, because that's one of the many major subjects of all family households, in regards to babies not understanding math. Our babies know math. So my biggest thing was that piece of aviation that I wanted to introduce to girls. And so we created the club, the Aviation Club within Project DIVA, and then also the Travel Academy speaks to that as well.

Sanni Brown 

Okay, this is The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. You said you went to help this young lady on her aviation dream, she said skirt, because that's what happens. You work with young ladies, and this happens all the time. They be like, "you know what? I don't want that no more. I want to do this." And now you're sitting here on this journey, and lo and behold, you just secretly wanted to — I want to highlight that part about how going to help people, you help yourself. How often does that happen? Because you just casually, gingerly laid that out. So how often does that happen with you spearheading project DIVA? Because, I mean, you've been doing it 17 years, so I'm assuming, like, how often does that happen?

Neda Kellogg 

Every encounter (both laugh). Every encounter, it literally is each one teach one. We are a communal organization that really, truly leans on each other. And the beautiful thing is, it's not about the other person. It's always about the individual. So when I am supporting them, I'm always making sure that I'm first because I'm supporting them. If that makes sense. I have to make sure that my behavior is in alignment with my truth in order to deal with somebody else, to support them. I gotta come solid.

Sanni Brown 

In the world, though, they say for a woman to do that, that's selfish.

Neda Kellogg 

And it's so the opposite.

Sanni Brown 

As soon as you said that, I'm like, "nope, they're gonna call that selfish." So what content are you giving to the girls to tell them this is not selfish, this is self-preservation, and it's community building?

Neda Kellogg 

A lot of our community here in Minnesota, Minneapolis, know S'sence. S'sence the poet, she transitioned a few years ago. Before she left, she left us with this piece called "I'm done chasing, just living in my destiny." She was performing it everywhere, and she intentionally performed that with the girls at Project DIVA that year, and it impacted all of us. And in that, when she said, "I'm done chasing, I'm just living in my destiny," she gave us all the permission that year to be okay with putting ourselves first. And as an organization, we took it deeper into ensuring that The S'sence Academy, in her honor, focuses on the mental and emotional health of our girls to ensure that they have to fill their cups up first. Our elders tell us that nonstop, we've got to fill up the cup first before you can support them next, right? And so that is a foundation that we have in Project DIVA. But also with that is the power hour. So all these tools, right? Kia Allen, our girl, she's been with me for, I think, 13, 14 years. She created the power hour so that every girl, the middle schoolers, wake up 30 minutes before they're supposed to get up. The teens and the adults wake up an hour before they're supposed to be on their way, to spend time with themselves, because we're gonna take time to spend with everybody else, so we dang sure better put ourselves first to get the down low from the God that you say you serve, you know? They're tools.

Sanni Brown 

You hit me with S'sence, you hit me with S'sence. I got the chance to interview S'sence, and you just hit me. I remember that statement — you just reminded me of, "I'm done chasing, just living in my destiny," and we gonna take a break, because I need to cry (both laugh). No joke, because I remember watching her perform that, and it's just wow. Alright, so that's what miss Neda be doing. So if you crying, that's how she be doing me when we off the air, we're gonna take a break and listen to some music. I'm sorry I got to sit on that one. So coming up next, now that we see this polished miss Neda, the 17 years strong, and from what I can hear just in this short conversation right now, I'm hearing young ladies all the way to older women, myself included, that you are touching with this program. And so I want to know how we became miss Neda. We gonna get into that on this next break, about some of the lumps and bumps we had to walk over — how do we get to walking in our destiny? On The Message, Carbon Sound in studio, Neda Kellogg, the founder and executive director of Project DIVA International, we will be right back. We're gonna found out how we got here. We gonna get those details coming up next on The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. This is Music Class.

Sanni Brown 

It's Music Class, and you are tuned into The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. Be sure to check out our playlist at carbonsound.fm and find out who we are at carbonsound.fm. You're really gonna want to hold on to carbonsound.fm in case you missed out on this interview with the one, the only miss Neda Kellogg, the founder and executive director of Project DIVA International, when I met her at the beginning of my radio career, it was simply Project DIVA, okay, we just done flown around the world with the young ladies, we International now. I got a question, so if you missed the last break, miss Neda said that she was helping a young lady in Project DIVA, she wanted to get into aviation, into flying, and on that path, the young lady decided to switch paths, and miss Neda was on that path. Now this is a part of Project DIVA programming. Is that why that happened? Is that when you went international?

Neda Kellogg 

We went international the year that we began the travel Academy. And we looked around and it was like, Black girls really don't understand the importance of travel and getting out of their community, because there are still a lot of our babies who have never come out of their communities. And so we wanted to make sure that girls understood that Black women were traveling solo, successfully, exploring the world in all types of different ways, some for work, some for pleasure, right? And wanting to get them to experience the whole gamut. So from budgeting for it, to understanding what documents you needed, to actually researching the place that you're going, and then to actually go. And so we've been doing that for the last three years, and this will be our first international trip. And the goal was for us not to have cohorts all over the world, it's more so to take girls from the United States International. So to show them how to be global citizens, and that they can do it right from here, or they can do a dual, but they can be international even from here in the United States.

Sanni Brown 

I do remember you talking about having different cohorts. What made you switch?

Neda Kellogg 

We never wanted to go national. We never wanted to have them national. We always wanted to stay 50 states. And then take these babies international.

Sanni Brown 

Ah, so you do have cohorts nationally? Oh!

Neda Kellogg 

Yes (laughs).

Sanni Brown 

Oh, okay, do you see how she just casually, see I had to pull that out? You got to let us know that (laughs). Okay, so wait, you started a chapter in Minneapolis, and you are national. You're already national.

Neda Kellogg 

We have a few states — and we're still building.

Sanni Brown 

Oh my gosh miss Neda, that's insane. You just didn't even say nothing! You gotta tell us! (laughs)

Neda Kellogg 

It's so much (laughs).

Sanni Brown 

Oh my gosh. Tell us. Okay (laughs). How do we get here Miss Neda? How did we get to these Project DIVA International dreams? What if we have another young miss Neda, they got the idea, but it's cloudy — I mean, you got a team of people, you got a board of directors. I remember when y'all pulled on the board of directors. You got different people. You started in Omaha. Start us at Omaha and let us know.

Neda Kellogg 

Wow, so I am the oldest, or second oldest, of about 45 to 50 first cousins on my dad's side, and then I'm the oldest of about 30 on the other, so I come from a community, literally come from a community. My mother has a mental challenge, and her challenge started when I was like seventh grade. And so she had moved us here, actually from Omaha to Minnesota, when her and my father divorced, and she ended up having a nervous breakdown here and sent us back to my father. In doing that, I ended up in middle school and high school without my mom, trying to figure out what was going on with her, but then also going through all my puberty stuff. And so as I came through the ranks, I graduated on like a Friday, I left home on that Monday at 18. So I left my dad's home and became homeless for about three years. So I couch hopped for about three years because nobody ever taught me how to live. My dad was a provider, and my stepmother, she really wasn't like a teacher. And so figuring that stuff out, literally, pulled me into understanding once I had to get a real job, right? Like, okay, what's a Roth IRA? You know, all of those things. I'm turning those down left and right, like, I don't know anything about those. My cousin ended up taking me into her home and showing me — my cousin Debbie Jackson, I love her — taking me into her home and showing me how to get my first apartment. I had to pay her a couple dollars for rent, like she showed me how to do it. And once I got into my apartment, then life began to level. And so now I have a boyfriend, I'm getting married, I got a child, and then it's like, now I'm seeing girls as I'm moving into — and actually went through that divorce, second marriage — I become a hairstylist. Salon TreVon was my very first business in Omaha, Nebraska, and it literally was not understanding the industry, not having a mentor, like all the things. But I had this big vision, and a lot of my family didn't support so it's like, "okay, I feel like I'm bigger than Omaha." And so moved back to Minnesota, and I have been hugged by the community around business, right? But still taking those lumps and humps, nonprofit versus for profit, no college degree, so I'm pulling friends and things together, and along that route, when it comes back to, every lesson was about me. I'm going through the bumps, the husbands, the kids, I was an away parent, so my my son's fathers, both of them, I have the best daddies in the world, raised them while I did Project DIVA here. So I'm traveling back and forth. Every job that I do have is understanding, like, if I gotta go, I gotta go deal with mental health with my mother back at home, or my sons need me for something. And so going through all of those things, I really went on this self-discovery journey. And as I've been building Project DIVA, because of the love that I have for others, others give that back to me. I stand on having to be my best version, and is it easy? Heck no! (Sanni laughs) It's nowhere near easy, but it's that daily walk-in because of that, women have attached to that, we want that, especially when we have children or relationships. I have had women with me for 13 years, for 15 years, for 10 years who have been literally building this to where we've been listening to the girls along the iterations on what they need, and that's where the expansion has come from. It's come from them saying, at first we needed emotional, mental and financial health or careers, right? Well, eventually we were like, "well, we need to figure out, because Black women have the highest health disparities, their physical health or their wellness." And then how are they getting to the bag for real?

Sanni Brown 

I love you said for real, because what they be telling us at 18 don't be for real. I had to learn that one in my twenties.

Neda Kellogg 

Exactly, and how do they retire well? Because now we're getting up in age, and we're understanding we done missed the boat?? Like we could have had way more? And so we added the additional three, and then it was like, 10 years in, it was like, you know what? Now it's time to make sure these girls understand how to be global citizens, right? Now we have the package, like, the all the things for them to be whole when they go and decide, because what we teach the girls is they come out of the womb entrepreneurial. And they get to decide, those gifts and talents, where they offer those — whether it's through their own business and other people are helping them build the business, or by supporting somebody else's vision.

Sanni Brown 

Okay. Rewind (both laugh). Bring it back. You went fast past it. You said you come out the womb an entrepreneur. I didn't see myself as an entrepreneur till maybe, like 5, 10 years ago, something like that.

Neda Kellogg 

Because they tell you to go to school and go work.

Sanni Brown 

And I was like, I'm actually a better entrepreneur than a corporate girly. You see, y'all listen to my mouth all the time. Can you hear this mouth in corporate y'all? Can you hear this mouth?? (Both laugh) Okay, I had to learn that. It's those gems miss Neda, it's just those gems. So here's my question, when did you decide — because it's one thing to go, "oh, I struggled." And it's another thing to have this vision of what you want to do. When did you decide, "yeah, these two is meant for each other, that mean I'm supposed to do something." When did you say I'm gonna take action on this vision and I'm gonna create this, essentially a boot camp for the ladies — but maybe a little bit more compassionate than the life boot camp that you were exposed to.

Neda Kellogg 

It was a couple of times. So the first time was when I was in the salon and I noticed that the moms, or I was listening to the moms tell me that their daughters were going through stuff. It was like, okay, how are they going through the same stuff? Like, the world hasn't seen that? So I ended up doing my first girls group in Omaha at a middle school, Monroe Middle School in Omaha, after school, and the girls could come over to my salon like six to eight weeks after to get their awards. And so when I moved to Minnesota, I worked for Dunwoody Academy, which was the feeder school for Dunwoody College, like they wanted Black students in their school, and they had no clue as to how to get them there. And so I wrap my arms around the girls while we lost our principal, and they were figuring all that stuff out, and the girls asked me to bring it back the next year. And so literally, the expansion of it has been just listening to the girls, but also making sure that — because also as the adults we're doing the work simultaneously, before they even get an application, we have to know you want to go on a personal development journey, because you can't come in front of these girls and be fake. They're gonna know. And we have to be doing the work that we're asking them to so both listening to the girls and paying attention to the women on what we're all needing as we move forward, because we're in it real time, while we're feeding it back to them. And so I'm making sure that, okay, what pitfalls are you dealing with that then we, as a sisterhood, can support? Because somebody done been through it, right? And then how do we then make sure that the girls see it beforehand? And they're able to get those tools and say, "okay, I remember miss Neda said she went through that. Let me call her or let me use some of the things that she's already shared with us." And so we became international because we needed that growth.

Sanni Brown 

A lot of the content that you cover, it covers conversations that we have internally, by ourselves, and it seems like you bring it out to the community, and then the community's like, "oh, girl, we got that over here on the shelf. Oh, girl, go on back there in the cabinet." (Both laugh) And so I don't know how you do that, but I can see that you doing that. And I just want to say, thank you (laughs). A lot of the stuff that you've been saying today about what the girls — shoot that I myself have had challenges with, I feel like, as Black women, we live a lot of our life inside, because if I come out and say it, I'ma be looked at like this. And I don't want to be looked at like I'm weak today; I don't want to look like I'm weak. I don't want to look like I'm soft today. Or I want to look like — you know, we have all these, "I don't want to..." and it stops us from getting these needs out. And you've created this space, for young Black girls and the Black women that's in their lives, the moms, the aunts, the community, and to say, "hey, we're really concerned about social media. Hey, we're really concerned about teenage sex. Hey, we're really concerned about teenage pregnancy." And I've seen it! I have seen it people. I have seen where the moms and the kids and the daughters are in there, and they're talking about these really heavy topics. And I have seen it. And I just want you to know this is happening in Minnesota. You are in connection with the Minnesota music scene. You've had Minnesota music scene artists perform at your style shows. Are we still doing — I know you got something going on in October. Let me go ahead and move out the way. And you go ahead and put that out. Because I want every young girl to know about Project DIVA. Part of the reason I'm sitting here in front of this app, I mean, in front of this mic, okay, on the app, on Carbon Sound app, it's because of the work that miss Neda has influenced me by, so what's going on in October? Please let us know.

Neda Kellogg 

Yes, so it's our third annual International Day of the Girl event. It is gonna be so bomb. We're at the Women's Club where we're headquartered, and we take over the whole Women's Club. And we start with a presentation, and the presentation is literally the girls leading the conversations that they want to have with each other to celebrate how they how well they are really being right now leaders. It's super, super cool. We actually have one of the young ladies from Texas flying in, she's 13, and she created an app that we're giving an award to. She has saved Texas drivers three months in the DMV. At 13.

Sanni Brown 

At 13? Well when you telling them they entrepreneurs coming out the womb (laughs).

Neda Kellogg 

And then afterwards, it's several booths of interactivity that the kids get to actually be in community with adults, and then we got the cotton candy machine. It's gonna be a girl fun day.

Sanni Brown 

I love — I just remember you linking up with the Women's Club. So that's insane. Y'all still going at it. I love that. So where can we find out about Project DIVA? If we want to put our daughters in, where can we find out about — (laughs)

Neda Kellogg 

Daughters and dollars.

Sanni Brown 

Yes, yes!. We gotta support man, and I say the same thing about local artists. Go and support your local artists. They gotta eat. I am a performer. It is very difficult to perform on an empty stomach, okay? And so I'm sure it is very difficult to run an international program on an empty stomach, and just know that they working with young kids. And so that's not what this is about. Where can we find out about Project DIVA International, please?

Neda Kellogg 

www.projectdiva.org

Sanni Brown 

www.projectdiva.org. Anything else I need to know? I don't want you to leave. I'm just asking silly questions (both laugh). Nothing else you want us to know?

Neda Kellogg 

You know, we are in a scaling space where we're looking to to bring people in to come to our events, so they can see for themselves what we have going on. And the three signature events are the International Day of the Girl, Saturday, October 12, from 10 to two. And then we have our oral presentations, I want to say March 3, and I'll send some more information for that. But this is where our girls, they have a topic, and they share with the world their voices around this topic, all of our high school girls. And then our end of year show is our Brilliant & Blazin' Style Show happening always the 3rd Saturday in April of every year.

Sanni Brown 

Okay. I've had this weird thing where I give an event an astrological sign, I love that it's in April. It's an Aries (laughs). A fire sign, y'all blazin'!

Neda Kellogg

Brilliant & Blazin'.

Sanni Brown 

Boom there you go. Thank you so much miss Neda for coming in. I know you're busy. You look beautiful. The fro is popping. Thank you. I'm trying to be like you. Projectdiva.org. Alright y'all, thank you miss Neda, you got to come back again around one of these events or something — the girls should come in!

Neda Kellogg 

Oh you know they would love that.

Sanni Brown 

The girls gotta come in. Yes, alright. We gonna get back to music. I don't know how much Music Class I got left because miss Neda done took over the show, but if I got a little bit, I'll hook you up. But this is The Message Carbon Sound, Music for Life. You are in Music Class. Don't go no place. Thank you, miss Neda.

Timothy Wilson stopped by to talk to Carbon Sound’s host Sanni about the origins of Urban Lights, the importance of physical media, the music industry in Minnesota and beyond over the years, and a whole lot more.

Sanni Brown 

Whoo. I am fangirling out big time right now, I can't even talk. This is The Message, Carbon Sound, Music for Life. You are in Music Class. I'm just really, just so happy to be who I am today in this seat. In the studio with me — just the history of St. Paul, the whole — y'all know how I get excited about the Minnesota music scene. I'm from Chicago, just being able to come from my own style of music and to come here and to see this whole culture and how bad y'all is, and then to hear about this one location called Urban lights. Through it all, this one location, famous people come to visit, local artists, they start there. Just this one little piece of Minnesota history. And we have the owner of said Urban Lights, Timothy Wilson. You can't hear him, but they sayin' yay!! (claps)

Timothy Wilson 

I'm in the building! I hope there's some claps somewhere around, but it's all good!

Sanni Brown 

Aye, the people who understand the vastness of the resourcefulness of the culture that the Minnesota music scene provides the people who live here, as well as clearly, everybody —based on the receipts you about to give us today — everybody outside the area. Wow. Do you know who you are?

Timothy Wilson 

No (Sanni laughs). Do you know who you are? I told you I'm a fan, like I love what you do up here. The energy is incredible. I've finally made it, I finally got here. I've been wondering for like the last year (Sanni laughs). Like, what's up? They don't want me up there??

Sanni Brown 

No! God no. Oh my goodness no. First of all, shout out to John, man. If y'all lovin the interviews, John is the one man, that's just number one. I have to balance my fangirl and my professionalism today. Timothy Wilson is the owner of Urban Lights in St. Paul. If you are not from here, and you're talking to people, and you getting to know about the Twin Cities, and you hear about Urban Lights, this is the spot to be, to get so much culture, especially the Minnesota music scene. So just, oh my goodness, I can't stop fangirling. Thank you so much for having time. You are a piece of Minnesota music history, and you're so humble, and that wows me, that y'all are doing the things that you're doing. You're having your hands in these bowls, and you guys are cooking, and you're just so humble. And you look fly! I just, I gotta say that, the Minnesota hat is poppin!

Timothy Wilson 

You look fly! Them Prada glasses is working. (Sanni laughs)

Sanni Brown 

Thank you thank you thank you. I'm trying to be like the Minnesota music scene. Okay, so quickly, for those who don't know, because I'm just — I was in foster care here. I heard about Urban Lights. When I was in college here, Urban Lights.

Timothy Wilson 

So what you saying I'm old.

Sanni Brown 

Now that ain't what I said, because that means I'm old too now, hold on (both laugh). No, we classic. But for those who don't know what Urban Lights is, who you are, please let us know, and don't do the humble stuff. Just let give us the details. Let us know what's really going on.

Timothy Wilson 

So Urban Lights is a music retail store that me and a few of my friends created back in the 90s, like 93, and it was based on we used to actually sit in high school and say, "man, we should own a record store. We should own a record store. That'd be cool, wouldn't it? That would be cool." And so I hung out at a lot of record stores growing up. I've been DJing since I was like 15, so I didn't want to spend money on records so I found out a way to have communication with both Musicland and a store in downtown Minneapolis called Music City. And I would trade information for music. So they would be like, "Tim, go in the back, take whatever you want." And I'd be like, "Yeah, you should order heavy on Public Enemy. And this group Run DMC, you better check them out. They gonna be big." And then I'd go across the street to Musicland, and he'd say, "Tim, man, look at this order sheet. What do you think?" "Oh you should order heavy on this, this and that." "Cool. Go in the back room and take all the vinyl you want." So that's how I built my vinyl collection, to actually go out and DJ, and then just hanging out in record stores. There was another record store called Know Name records, I believe they were on like, 60th and Chicago. I used to hang out there like every day after school. Used to sit and read all the trade magazines and all that kind of stuff. And then, on top of all of that, my locker — and I hate to say this, I didn't have a lot of books in my locker, but I had a lot of cassettes for sale in my locker. So my locker was kind of a store, before I was a store, so, and then we used to joke about it, like, "man, it'd be cool if we ever got a record store. Man, we could do this and that." And then 93 I was hanging out at Northern Lights in St. Paul a lot, and we were joking one day, he said, "Tim, you should buy this from me. I want to be done." And I was like, "yeah, sure, no problem. I'll call my banker." So Northern Lights had 10 to 15 stores at that time, and they were a little nervous of where the neighborhood was going, so they wanted to let that one go. And so I think we went through about three, four months’ worth of negotiations back and forth. And then all the guys that I joked with about having a record store, I went to each one of them. I said, "guess what? We could have a record store if you have this amount of money" and we all put it up. And September 3, 1993, we opened the door.

Sanni Brown 

Oh my god, that is so hip-hop.

Timothy Wilson 

Yeah, it's Beat Street. (laughs)

Sanni Brown 

Oh my god, I have chills. I love it, I love it. I love it, love it. I love y'all stories. I love this so much. So just a bunch of friends — but okay, for all the baby hustles that's listening. You gon have to tell us about that little CD and the locker thing and how you was the little mini store before that started. What's that about? (laughs)

Timothy Wilson 

So I started — I tried to play sports, but it hurts to get tackled. I found that out (Sanni laughs). I wasn't a fan, so I said, "well, how can I still be in the mix, but not be in that mix?" So I basically traded in my football uniform for two turntables and a mixer. And I started making mixes. And I made pop mixes, rock mixes, slow mixes, hip-hop mixes, and then my locker, people would just come to me like, "hey, man, I got a party this week" and "man you got a slow jam tape?" "Yep! $10.99." (laughs)

Sanni Brown 

Ladies and gentlemen, Music for Life. This was a whole like branding, marketing strategy you're doing as a young person. I love when you guys come in and tell stories, you guys are like 16, 15 doing these business moves. Oh my goodness, there's so much to unpack in this one little story. Oh my goodness.

Timothy Wilson 

I just went to my high school reunion, probably, I don't know, a month ago. And there's still people who "man, I still have your cassette, the mix you made for me back in 1982!" (laughs)

Sanni Brown 

When we say Music for Life, I think it's so easy for us to overlook the services we need around music. You literally just explained to us three different ways you provide services. You are services to the youth, people having parties. I'm about to take this girl on a date. We about to turn up at the football game. You will also grow up to be this resource for businesses that are in business selling music, and you're a DJ, that's another service. How old are you by the time you've done these three services? (laughs)

Timothy Wilson 

Like 17. And I worked full time. I worked at a grocery store. But, you know, I worked so I could buy more equipment, more equipment, and then we would DJ parties.

Sanni Brown 

So you really two turntables and a microphone.

Timothy Wilson 

From the beginning. Yes.

Sanni Brown 

This is The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. You are in Music Class, and I am struggling to not have my brain wowed. I just love those down-home recipes to success. So what was it in you that was like, "go talk to these people, go do these things?" Because, you know, a lot of us will have the idea. A lot of young people will have the idea. But there's these doubts, and young people have social media, and if you're not like a social media star this way, and what I do know, even with social media and with the rise of technology, the thing that you're doing, it still works. So how do you relay that to young people? That even though we got all this stuff, you had your feet on the ground, you were talking to real people.

Timothy Wilson 

You still have to communicate with people. You still have to be consistent in what you want in life, and you can still dream. We don't have to just follow the norm. You know, you get up, nine to five, come home, cook dinner, watch TV, go to bed. That's not life. That's a cool life, if you want it. But if you want more, you have to communicate. Get out there, rub elbows, network. Network is probably the best word. You really gotta just let people know who you are. When I got out of high school, I went to college for two years, and I hated school, but I knew if I didn't go to college, I wouldn't have an opportunity to do anything. So I hurry up and did a two-year program, and then jumped right into sales because I talk too much. And I love to talk. You put me in front of a room of 100 people, I'll sell you whatever you want to buy (Sanni laughs). You know, it's no problem. I literally took all of those techniques, poured them into sales, and then I poured that back into Urban Lights. And you know, our thing, people are like, "oh man, it's cheaper at Target. It's cheaper at Best Buy," but you don't get the customer service that you get from me. And I keep it real with you, and I tell you, "stay away from that record, because it sucks."

Sanni Brown 

So much to unpack — I'm gonna take a break right now because the next place I want to go is your opinion about physical music. I want to know your insights and the people that you're talking to.

Timothy Wilson 

It exists! It still exists.

Sanni Brown 

Yeah, so we gonna hold off on that. Is there any music you would like for us to play? Anything?

Timothy Wilson 

Nah, just long as it's hip-hop.

Sanni Brown 

Okay, boom. I like that. Alright, so we'll be right back. We're gonna listen to some hip-hop, and then we're gonna get back to the discussion about physical music, the legendary Urban Lights, with the owner of Urban Lights, Timothy Wilson, on The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life.

Sanni Brown 

It's The Message Carbon Sound Music for Life. In studio, I'm just gonna let you know straight off the top, Timothy Wilson, if you want to know what we played, check out our playlist at carbonsound.fm. I know I be throwing it back and letting you know specifically, but this is important. Timothy Wilson, owner of Urban Lights, St. Paul, Minnesota music legend, business strategist by 17. Marketing strategist, okay, before we even hit 21.

Timothy Wilson 

You're making me think about all these things, I guess I did, yeah.

Sanni Brown 

I guess it's because when you're experiencing it, you're experiencing from the inside, because you're like, "you the one!" And I'm like, "nah, you the one!" (laughs)

Timothy Wilson 

We're doing the Spider Man thing, "You!" "You!" "You!" "You!"

Sanni Brown 

I am in awe of the Minnesota music scene, and I'm always wondering, like, "when did this happen?" and "what inspired them to do that beat and say this this way?" and to know that a lot of this stuff is like coming to life at your store. Oh my goodness, so one we have the artist creating the art and the culture, and then you've created this platform, this space to sell physical music. But ah! Wait, wait, wait, we are now in the digital world, where young people — I'm told, young people, they believe music is free.

Timothy Wilson 

They do.

Sanni Brown 

They do. And so I don't know that. I remember, like you said, I remember hanging out at the record store. There was a smell of the vinyl. Oh, my goodness — this is all hip-hop.

Timothy Wilson 

But understand this though, the younger generation is figuring that out.

Sanni Brown 

I can see it. I can see that, yeah.

Timothy Wilson 

And vinyl, right now, is the top selling medium of music right now.

Sanni Brown 

From what I'm told, and in my time in radio, it's been that way a while.

Timothy Wilson 

At least the last three years. It's outdoing streaming and all that.

Sanni Brown 

You know what, I'm glad you said that. I think I do forget that, because I was shocked when I first got into radio. They were like "no, vinyl is —" and I noticed too, you'll notice successful hip-hop albums, they'll turn it into vinyl.

Timothy Wilson 

Well, because this is what happens. So artists want — like a Snoop Dogg wants you to press Doggystyle on vinyl, because he gets paid at older rates. The streaming money is no money. It's three-tenths of a penny, you have to stream a million times to make $4,000, which seems like a waste of time and energy. When I could put it out on vinyl, I might not sell as much, but albums are 20, 30 bucks now, and if I'm an artist, and I'm just peeling off five bucks, if I'm peeling off 2,3,4 bucks, that's way more than the streaming money. So that's where artists are at right now.

Sanni Brown 

So, do you think physical music is still valuable?

Timothy Wilson 

For sure, definitely.

Sanni Brown 

By your expertise, how?

Timothy Wilson 

People want to touch a product.

Sanni Brown 

Because you're telling us why it's valuable to the artist, to the person that's selling this product. Why is it valuable to us? I mean, I'm a fan girl. I want something.

Timothy Wilson 

Because you as the consumer, you want to physically touch something. And you want to know who produced this song that you like so much, maybe who played the drums on it, who played the bass on it. Music now is cookie cutter. It's refrigerated. It's quick. We put it out, and we get it out, and then nobody cares in a month. But when I go in and purchase, and I spend $30 and I open this record, now, I have a connection with the artwork. I have a connection if I did a different colorway. Take a Taylor Swift, she drops all her albums in pink, purple, lavender, green, blue, and her fans go buy every one. It's something to be said for having something that you can go back in reference to, some people frame up the covers, some people have their 30, 40 records at home that they listen to when they have people over playing cards, whatever. It's a thing, but it's a physical connection. There's no connection to digital music at all. It just comes and goes.

Sanni Brown 

I love that you said that, because I think when you're consuming it, you don't realize it. Because I was fortunate enough to be in the 80s and the 90s, I remember there was a music space — I'm not from here, I was homeless then, and there was a music store downtown St. Paul that I used to go to. I remember thinking, "I like this song. I want to go get this song." I go out, I go take a bus, I go into the store. Like it's a whole experience, that whole thing. And like you said, reading it, looking at the back of the book, "who did this? who sang that note when they did that?" You are very right. And when it's streaming, I don't do any of that, you're very right.

Timothy Wilson 

You just hit the next one and the next one. I'll ride with my daughter in the car, and she'll change the song 10 times in less than two, three minutes. And I'm like, "you didn't even let it get to the hook! People only care about the hook of the record, you never let it get to the hook!"

Sanni Brown 

So I'm right now processing how — because in radio, when the internet came, "oh, boy, you radio hosts, they're not gonna need you." And I talk about it, like, Spotify has their own radio personality, and it's an AI person, and I be like, "baby, I'm going head up every morning" (laughs). But you're right, it's that human connection. So the physical music, it provides that human connection, and virtual to me, sounds like will never be able to compete with that. How can I get something physical for something virtual?

Timothy Wilson 

I mean, think about it. People have an attachment to the Vikings, they have an attachment to the Timberwolves, based on your jerseys, your hats, the things that you purchase when you leave the game to go home and put on and walk down the street, go to work, whatever you doing, jogging, laughing, hanging out, you've now made an attachment. So it's the same thing with music to me. If you actually walk into a store and buy Michael Jackson Thriller, now you have a physical attachment to that record.

Sanni Brown 

Wow. I guess I've just always been consuming it and never really analyzing it.

Timothy Wilson 

I have a lot of time on my hands so I can analyze a lot of stuff. (laughs)

Sanni Brown 

But I mean, you're immersed in — I love this gig, because I get to do the things that I'm doing by myself. And like, I looked in the packets behind the books and I would stare at a cover art for hours (laughs) or the cover of a record and be like, "why did they choose that artwork?" and everything like you said, it is the artist.

Timothy Wilson 

And then you think about how many people are involved. So now you have a photographer involved, you have an art director involved. You have an A&R rep involved. You have the artists involved. There's a lot of moving pieces that go to putting a product together, where you would walk to the store and go, "what is that??" And then actually pick it up in your hand, look at it, flip through it, and go, "I need this."

Sanni Brown 

What do you tell artists who are creating music? How do you convey to them the importance of everything you just said, so that they are providing their listener that experience?

Timothy Wilson 

I mean, I just tell people, you have to, unfortunately, be super consistent right now. And what I mean by that is that you can't take any days off. If you're trying to be an artist, you can't be like, "hey, I put out this new record today" and then we don't hear anything else from you. We don't see no posts, we don't see no movement. We don't hear you at a show.

Sanni Brown 

You tearing me up right now, because that's me. But go ahead. (laughs)

Timothy Wilson 

But you know what though, that's like 99 — I heard Ebro say the other day, like over 200,000 records come out a week on Spotify, but only 5% of them make it. And that's because people are just to the point now where like, "hey, I got a record out" and then that's it. So where's the follow up? How do you connect with your fans? How do you build a fanbase? Because that's the only way to sell music is to build a fan base. Whether it's organically — organically is the best way to do it. You can go steal some spins and some streams and pay the money and get, you know, bump your numbers up.

Sanni Brown 

It always seems like that backfires later on, though.

Timothy Wilson 

It does, because then people figure out what it really was when it comes to crunch time on you. So especially if you really pop off, and they'll say, "well, remember when you got them 30, 40,000 spins over here? It's not adding up. It doesn't make sense." But you have to just be consistent, and you have to constantly engage yourself with your fans. You got to just spend time with them. And it takes a lot of time. It's like another job. I often tell people that — moving around in New York and in LA and stuff like that, artistry is different. Because some people can dedicate and be like, "I don't do nothing else with my life but this." And dedicate 100% of their time and effort to it.

Sanni Brown 

Yeah, but the way these bills is today! (laughs)

Timothy Wilson 

I always feel like people in the Midwest, especially, we play from a behind position, because we have to do other things. We have to go to work, and then hopefully you have enough energy when you get off work to push the music. If indeed, you could spend 100% of your day just working on the dream, where would it be?

Sanni Brown 

I kick myself because I know that's what I had to do to get into radio. I couldn't take no days off. If there was nothing to do, I had to research somebody that was successful in radio, if it wasn't that, I was trying to think of something. So I know it's the same thing, but still. Here's my question, what's the most epic thing you've seen musically? Let me narrow it down. In your time being the owner of Urban Lights, what's the most epic musical thing you've seen at Urban Lights and in Minnesota, on the Minnesota music scene? Those two levels. Because I know you done seen some things.

Timothy Wilson 

At Urban lights, probably to be honest with you — and it wasn't a big deal that day, but I knew Wyclef through another situation, and he walks in the door with four young ladies. And he says, "hey, we're in town promoting this new record. This is Destiny's Child."

Sanni Brown 

Oh my God. (laughs)

Timothy Wilson 

So when the original, you know, when LaTavia and LeToya was in the group. Yeah, he's like, "I just finished doing a couple records with them. I just wanted — I told them, this is the spot" or whatever. "Hey, nice to meet you —"

Sanni Brown 

This happened here?? And you just — this is what I'm saying. Y'all be having magic. Oh my goodness. I remember that, I was here when they came out. Oh my goodness. I remember them on the radio — so they just walked in casually into Urban Freaking lights?

Timothy Wilson 

And they probably were here, because again — so music at that time, right, 80,90, 95% of music in the United States all came from Minnesota.

Sanni Brown 

Yeah, so how did you get that stat? Imma be real with you, if you really are locked into music, you can hear that, especially in the 80s, you can hear that.

Timothy Wilson 

Well even past that, we have all the corporate offices are here. We have Musicland corporate offices here, Target corporate offices here, Best Buy corporate offices here. Sam Goody, Musicland, everybody's office was officed out of Minnesota. Navarre, Polestar Distributors, which was Priority Records. They all were here. They all had offices in St. Louis Park, Eden Prairie, all that. And then on top of that, every record label had a full Office. Universal, Warner Brothers, Sony, you could walk into the Sony office with the Sony on the wall and talk to the Secretary and go see whoever you had to see back in the offices and stuff like that. So artists had to come here and literally pitch records. I've been in meetings where it's all record stores in the room and someone like a 50 Cent is up at a right board going "so my album comes out Friday. Best Buy, I need y'all to bring in 100,000, 200,000 units" and "this is my single. We shooting a video to this, this and this" and so they really had to sell the records.

Sanni Brown 

Wow, just everything you're saying — so like, do you know? Are you tapped into like, why so much music? What is it about here? Why did they set their offices up here?

Timothy Wilson 

Well, I think it's just Minnesota is one of the biggest corporate — there's so many corporate headquarters in Minnesota.

Sanni Brown 

I know, but what's that got to do with music, though? Because you can say "yes, we got corporate" but the vibes y'all pumping out, okay, I'm not seeing how them two is connected.

Timothy Wilson 

I think most of that was business. What you got was a byproduct of that, is that this Minneapolis sound during the 80's probably helped everybody who, you know, all the corporate people got helped because Prince came up, and then Prince birthed 10 other groups. And so now, you know we're looking at — I'm gonna say 87, 88 maybe somewhere in there, where Minneapolis was, like, this was it. You came here to get your record produced. It didn't matter if you was Madonna, Sheena Easton, Paula Abdul, they all came here.

Sanni Brown 

And when I go back and look at the artists, they all came here to record. They'll tell you, "oh, they recorded here" — and I just, I'm like, trying to figure out this thing that is the Minneapolis music scene.

Timothy Wilson 

Jam and Lewis, they was running, yeah, Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, New Edition. You know, they all were running in and out of there.

Sanni Brown 

So is it the corporate, or is it the vibe?

Timothy Wilson 

I think it started as corporate, then it turned into a vibe. Because while the corporate situation is going on, you have young Jimmy Jam, young Terry Lewis, young prince on the north side, you know, you got young Dr. Fink, everybody's getting their thing together. And then it all came together. I mean, because we had a lot of bands, the different venues they would play around the city was crazy. And so, you know, Morris would play drums for a band, Prince lead sing over here, this cat lead sing over here, they finally all got together and did what they did. I look at the most important music in the world is the music that changes things. L.A. gangster rap, Ice Cube and N.W.A, they changed rap, Run-DMCs of the world changed rap for that time stamp. And so Prince changed everything for that time stamp. He made a specific sound that the world could not get enough of. And so again, everybody was coming here. Every label was signing people from Minnesota. And then once they get them signed, this person would leave Prince's group, this person would leave Jimmy and Terry leave. They go start their own thing. Jesse Johnson starts his own thing. Jelly Bean starts his own thing.

Sanni Brown 

You know what's funny, I'm listening to you, and I hear young people — like we just had philosx3 in here. We've had Taylor Briann in here. I'm trying to get Essjay in here, wink wink, nudge nudge.

Timothy Wilson 

Essjay is dope.

Sanni Brown 

I love Essjay, oh my goodness, I love her so much.

Timothy Wilson 

She's on something different.

Sanni Brown 

I know she is. That's why I'm a fan. I'm a huge fan.

Timothy Wilson 

Yeah I'm a fan. I told her that — she did an open mic. I told her that, "there's something different about you."

Sanni Brown 

Yeah, man. She's something special, man. But I like how you're talking about how Prince and them were all these different artists, and they were all hustling. I hear the same thing with young people now, though, and is that the spirit of Minneapolis? Is that because the infrastructure is there?

Timothy Wilson 

I think it's because the infrastructure is there. But I also believe that we have to get behind somebody.

Sanni Brown 

What do you mean when you say that?

Timothy Wilson 

The city got behind Prince — out of here. And then anything he would do, we got to hear it, we got to know about, "tell me more." So at some point we have to get behind somebody we think is super talented. The city got behind Bob Dylan. There's just certain people who have it, and that's across the board, because your talent, musically, might be worth 5%. The other 95% is who you know, what the vibe is. The "it" factor, those things that — you know, that's the reason why American Idol was so successful, because it plays on that "I'm not just looking for the best singer, I'm looking for a star. I'm looking for a person who got it all." And so at some point, we have to be like, "let's get behind this person and show our support." And you know, honestly, as Minnesota goes, back in the day it was like that. It's not like that now.

Sanni Brown 

Okay, because I be screaming up here on the first Thursday of every month, like, "yeah, y'all got to get behind this one and that one." That's the spirit of when I do, I'm screaming like, "hey, that's something special, this is the one" and they get me excited, like, these are artists that I get excited about in my personal time. So I do like this. I feel like I came from that era where a whole city does, I agree with you, get behind the artist I agree with you, yeah.

Timothy Wilson 

Because I mean, look at New York. It becomes a thing. It goes through all the boroughs, and all of a sudden now it's ready to get out of New York and go take on the world. Same with L.A., same with Chicago to a great extent.

Sanni Brown 

Being from out of town, I feel like I found this — even though it's the Minneapolis sound, somebody else found this — I don't wanna Christopher Columbus this. It's already here, baby. But it's just so exciting, and I want people to get more excited about it. This is a gem.

Timothy Wilson 

People don't know the history.

Sanni Brown 

And I'm wondering if that's what it is —

Timothy Wilson 

And it's a lot of it. You really need to know the history. So the cool thing about Urban Lights, right, is that we were doing open mics, and the open mics were very, very well attended, and sometimes we'd have 40 people performing in one night — but it was the history. And so I got to talk to so many young people like, "tell me more about this" and they would point to a poster on the wall, and I'd say "well, you know, man, back in 2003 this happened, that happened." You have to be a student of the game in order to succeed. A Michael Jordan, a Kobe Bryant, they were students of basketball. They could run off to you stats from players gone by, why this rule is in force, why this happens, why this goes. If I go left, you're gonna go right. I already know that in my mind, because I've studied so much tape, and I know these things. So to me as an artist, I would spend my time figuring out — if you like XYZ, well, how did XYZ get to be XYZ? I need to know everything.

Sanni Brown 

I love that. Because I hear young people say "it ain't that deep" and okay, let me say this. But here's the beautiful thing, not all young people are like that. Some young people, they found their thing, and they're deep in the thing. And so for young people who may not understand why those young people are like that, when you do, like you said, become — you see, I'm in here getting the details, baby, because I need to know. Because I am such a fan of the scene, and I'm like, "well, why did that go like this?" And so I really love the interviews, because, number one, it helps the local artists. Number two is hyping y'all up. You are Minnesota history, and I need young people to go visit Urban Lights. You're sitting up here with a treasure. I heard about Urban Lights when I was a young person, a teenager here in the Twin Cities, and it was always just this legendary thing (Tim laughs). It is! All of you guys, I know about you just from my own research.

Timothy Wilson 

But see you researched it, right? And you spent some time.

Sanni Brown 

Yes!

Timothy Wilson 

And so people need to get out, move around, rub elbows with some people, ask questions. I tell people that I'm there for a reason.

Sanni Brown 

Yes, so please make use of it, please!

Timothy Wilson 

People's like, "oh, why is it called Urban Lights?"

Sanni Brown 

Why is it called Urban lights?

Timothy Wilson 

I'm a light in the middle of the hood. I'll tell you whatever you want to know. I'm there to put you on the right path, if I can.

Sanni Brown 

Sheesh! Okay, Derrick's gonna get me for that. I'm so sorry. Young people, hustlers, young Twin Cities — shoot middle-aged Twin Cities. It ain't too late, baby.

Timothy Wilson 

Nah music got no numbers on it.

Sanni Brown 

If y'all don't take nothing away from these interviews, just please understand the resources that you have, if you're not into music, just resources to the history of the land, the epicness of the land that you are standing on. Music, to me, is like, it's like pouring tea on life. Like, it's pouring me the tea. And the fact that you just came in here with all this tea. (both laugh)

Timothy Wilson 

We didn't even scrape the surface, this is like the — I don't even know what part of the tea this is.

Sanni Brown 

We just boiling the water right now. I know this interview is only supposed to be 30 minutes. Forget that.

Timothy Wilson 

I can come back any time.

Sanni Brown 

No, I want you to stay here (sad voice). I wanna get a cot for you. (both laugh)

Timothy Wilson 

I'll move in!

Sanni Brown 

I want you to tell me bedtime stories about the Minneapolis music scene. You have so much history, and I know — I have a show to do, and I'm being really selfish and taking away from my show.

Timothy Wilson 

And you're really good at what you do.

Sanni Brown 

Thank you. I really appreciate that. Is there any other information, any other stories, anything that sticks out, that you could tell us anything — because I just know you know, man!

Timothy Wilson 

Nah there's too many. We'd be here too long, and it'd be like the Grammys, they start playing music while you gotta walk off.

Sanni Brown 

He just casually told us Wyclef walked in with a budding Destiny's Child. Dude, I know you got more stories, something, anything? Hit us off with something on the way out the door.

Timothy Wilson 

Okay, so a fun one was — and again, people used to promote records. They don't anymore. So Def Jam had this promotion for the Redman album with this mascot. They made a mascot with a head on with a skull cap pulled over his eyes, and that was the mascot. So cat from Def Jam called me, and said "Tim hey, I'm" —

Sanni Brown 

(laughs) Somebody from Def Jam just casually calls Timothy Wilson, don't move past that, okay.

Timothy Wilson 

So he said, "we're doing some promotion today. I'm gonna bring the mascot for the Redman album through the store. You gonna have any people around?" I said "yeah, there should be some people around" or whatever. So he comes, he's all in the whole mascot, like crunch, you know, he's in the whole gear and just record label people, and they're showing him the store and taking pictures with some of the kids and things like that. And the mascot was just running around the store, just crazy, like, out of control. And he kept going in and out of the front door and standing in the middle of the street and trying to wave the busses down. And the bus stop is kind of right in front of Urban Lights. So the guy went and got on the bus. The mascot went and got on the bus and he's high fiving the people on the bus, and he gets off the bus and he takes the hat off, it's Redman. (Sanni laughs)

Sanni Brown 

Hey, we need a podcast. Urban Lights need a podcast. You know what, nah, just come here. Just link up with Carbon Sound. That's so dope.

Timothy Wilson 

It was cool. But people used to promote, like they used to really, really care about getting out in the streets and promoting their records.

Sanni Brown 

But listen to what that says that you said — Def Jam, Redman pulling up, getting on the MTC. And they're doing it here, right on Minnesota music soil. You got to come back, please come back.

Timothy Wilson 

Yeah, of course, anytime.

Sanni Brown 

Oh my goodness. Timothy Wilson, we're gonna have him back in. You know what's so lucky, y'all don't gotta wait for Carbon Sound. Y'all could roll right up on Urban Lights, and he got a light for you, the light gonna be on.

Timothy Wilson 

It's on, all the time.

Sanni Brown 

I love that. Thank you so much for coming in here, Timothy Wilson.

Timothy Wilson 

Thank you, I appreciate you having me. Anytime, put the bat signal out I'm here.

Sanni Brown 

Absolutely, we gotta find a Carbon Sound —

Timothy Wilson 

Just put it in the air. I'll be like, alright. (both laugh)

Sanni Brown 

Alright, unfortunately, I got to end the interview y'all, and get back to the show. I enjoyed you so much today, Timothy.

Timothy Wilson 

I appreciate it. No, I enjoyed you.

Sanni Brown 

Okay, whatever music class we got left over, I got y'all. Let me de-process and everything, and go fan out some more, and I'll be back on The Message. Carbon Sound, Music for Life. Don't go no place.

Awa Mally sat down with Carbon Sound’s host Sanni and talked about her start in photography and community curation, learning to center her creative ideas and needs, and more.

Sanni Brown 

It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. Sanni here with another exciting interview. And this is dope, because I met you twice, okay — once, when we first started Carbon Sound, and then the second time was at the Beat Battle for Carbon Sound. So in the studio, because I'm just talking, and I ain't said the person's name, Minneapolis creative and community curator of photo, film, design, and more, we have Awa Mally. This is the person who, when we first came out with Carbon Sound, you're responsible for a lot of the imaging that we had. So thank you and welcome for pulling up!

Awa Mally 

Thank you for having me!

Awa's Photos for Carbon Sound

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Sanni Brown 

Cool! I have a list of things that we can go over, but I always like to let people tell the audience who they are. I think you do so much better. It's gonna sound canned and all boxed and everything when I do it. So let us know, who are you? Who is Awa Mally?

Awa Mally 

So I am a Minneapolis based artist and curator, and so much more. I'm Togolese, so my parents immigrated here from Togo. And I've been living in Minneapolis ever since. So a lot of what I do is centered around community, my identity and just like, creating art, honestly.

Sanni Brown 

You got photo, film, design and more. What would you say is your flagship profession? How would you like to be called on? What's the projects for you today? Is it in film, design or photo?

Awa Mally 

Honestly, I would say, because I do all that stuff now, I kind of don't want to be identified by individual things. I'd rather be identified by my passion, which is caring about art and people.

Sanni Brown 

Okay, so I'm gonna take it back, because I love when I see the adult version of what your little person was when you were little. So tell me how you got into this, how you became a curator of stories in the community. Where did this start? You say you started as a teen. So give us the backstory on that. What did you use? What tech did you use? Because you ain't had no camera phones like that, did you?

Awa Mally 

So my first visual art medium was taking photos on my Nintendo 3DS.  

Sanni Brown 

Okay! I was gonna ask you this before the interview. Like, "no, I need to know what tech you use." Okay, so tell me about that. My daughter had a Nintendo 3DS, but I didn't touch it. I didn't touch it too much. So how did you do that? Was it like screenshots mainly?

Awa Mally 

They had a little camera on mine, so I would just take pictures with that. And then from there, I had a iPod Touch, the one with the camera on it, so I would take pictures on that. And then eventually I got, like, a real camera.

Sanni Brown 

So you went from iPod to just camera? No phones or none in between? No Polaroids, no Kodaks? (laughs)

Awa Mally 

No, I think I went from — because I think when I got my first phone, I wasn't really using it for photography, like I would take pictures on it, but I got a phone pretty late, like, in my teenage years versus what other people would get a phone.

Sanni Brown 

So you would use your Nintendo 3DS for photography, but not the actual phone?

Awa Mally 

No. (Sanni laughs) Because I think having an iPhone and getting into photography happened pretty, like, I don't remember the dates, but I think they happened pretty close to each other.

Sanni Brown 

Okay, so what was it on the DS that was like, "I want to take a picture of this." What was it that you saw?

Awa Mally 

Anything. For me, photography — I would just take pictures of everything. So, like my friends, nature —

Sanni Brown 

What inspires you? Like you're a teen, so what inspired you? Your friends, the neighborhood?

Awa Mally 

Literally all of that. Life. I was like, "oh, this is so cool. Everything looks so beautiful, everything is so interesting."

Sanni Brown 

Okay, so it started on the 3DS and then, like, what did you do with the pictures? Did you ever print them out and make it like, real or?

Awa Mally 

No (laughs), maybe a Facebook post, maybe Instagram posts, but it was mostly just sitting on my devices.

Sanni Brown 

Okay, so it was just like a hobby, and then you go to — you said went from 3DS to iPod, and then the iPhone, and you wasn't really into the iPhone. When was the moment when you were like, "nah, I wanna take this serious." When was that moment? Because cameras is expensive. So you had to be locked in to make that decision (both laugh).

Awa Mally 

So my dad had a canon (digital camera), and I would never touch my dad's stuff. And it was around my junior or senior of high school, when people have hobbies, and you're applying for colleges and stuff, and they're like, "oh, we want to see extracurricular things." And I was like, "oh, I don't have extracurriculars activities."

Sanni Brown 

See, you disrespecting the 3DS. See, if you would've printed it out — (both laugh)

Awa Mally 

See, if I printed it out, I would have that. And at the time, I was in a like, social justice group with my friends, and we were throwing events. And I was like, "oh, this is a perfect opportunity. I'm in this club, we're doing events, we need documentation. I should just start now. This is the perfect opportunity for me to start now." And I just started then.

Sanni Brown 

So, what does that mean? You documented what? What was the first thing you documented?

Awa Mally 

I'm trying to remember now — we did this educational pop-up at — it was, like, old, old Green Room when it was just the magazine. And we did this, like, educate yourself panel and mini workshops. So we were trying to have our peers educate themselves around social justice issues, and I documented that, and that was really cool.

Sanni Brown 

And so that's where the storytelling element —? Because at first, you're just documenting. When did it hit you that you wanted it to be storytelling versus "I'm just doing this for somebody"? When did you decide that that's how you wanted to use this weapon of choice? Because I know you know where that's from, right?

Awa Mally 

No.

Sanni Brown 

You don't??

Awa Mally 

I don't.

Sanni Brown 

Okay, well we're gonna — I'm gonna make sure I got the name correctly, because it is a Minneapolis or Minnesota — can't think of his name, but he said it's a weapon of his choice, and he was here, and he's got family members here, so I'm gonna make sure I get the name when we go to break. I definitely got to drop that one on you. That's Minnesota history! Okay, so you do this project, and then, like, what happens after that?

Awa Mally 

I just continue. So we were still doing events, and I would document that. And then, of course, there were protests, I would document that.    

Sanni Brown 

What was the first protest you documented?

Awa Mally 

I believe it was — it was either Jamar Clark or Trayvon Martin. It's so sad because at that time, there were so many protests back to back, so I can't really remember, but I believe it was either one of those.

Sanni Brown 

Did it stick with you because of what you saw, or that you were the one that was called to document it?

Awa Mally 

I think at that time, mostly because it was my friends that were leading protests and giving speeches, so just knowing at that age and our demographic —

Sanni Brown 

How old were you?

Awa Mally 

Probably like, 17.

Sanni Brown 

Wow. And you're documenting protests?? I like how you just casually act like,"you know, this what the average 17-year-old doing (laughs). We documenting history." Did you understand what was happening?

Awa Mally 

A little bit. But I feel like at that age too, we were all so young. So we knew what we had to do, but we didn't fully understand, like, what exactly this meant.

Sanni Brown 

How do you feel about it now, when you look back on it?

Awa Mally 

Oh, traumatized.

Sanni Brown 

Are those scenarios more traumatizing for photographer — I mean, I guess I can't ask you that question. Like, do you feel like you feel it more? Because you have pictures, it's in your head, like, visually. Do you feel like you experience the protest or whatever you're documenting differently?

Awa Mally 

At that time, it's more just being present. So I feel like I feel the same way as any other person at a protest would feel, but definitely because those images stay with me forever, I feel like other people you are in the moment, and then they're just memories, but for me, I have like, exact photo replication of like those moments. So it really does hit hard. And then also just looking back at the different people who may be here, may not be here anymore, and also just knowing how much that time period affected people.

Sanni Brown 

Oh my goodness, wow. So we gonna get a little deeper than that, I need to know. Because I want to know about the work you're doing now. In the studio, I have Awa Mally, Minneapolis creative and community curator. She hooked us up with our photos for Carbon Sound. She also helped curate our Beat Battle that we had. We're gonna continue on with the work you're doing now, so that we can support you. And if, you know, somebody need a photographer holla at Awa, okay. So we'll be right back, any songs you want me to play in the meantime? Anything, off the top of your head.

Awa Mally 

Do you have Asake?

Sanni Brown  

No, but we got something that might sound like that. Give me two more artists that we could throw on.

Awa Mally 

Tems and Wizkid.

Sanni Brown 

Okay, bam. I like that. We could do that. All right. We'll be right back. We are in the studio with Awa Mally on The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. This is music class. Don't go nowhere.

Sanni Brown 

It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. You are in music class. Sanni, your radio friend in the studio with Minneapolis creative and community curator. She does photo, film design and more, and she's a little bit traumatized by it, but she's processing it and using it for the greater good of the community. Awa Mally, thank you so much for being here, and I shouldn't laugh about the trauma — I mean, trauma does change us, though it does. It really does.

Awa Mally 

It does, and honestly that really is a good description, because I do all this art stuff, but there is a lot of emotions that come with it.

Sanni Brown 

Because it's art, and art is an expression of the human soul. People are expressing themselves. And you know, whatever comes out is what comes out, and then however it touches it, it touches us. And for you to be a photographer — I don't know, I feel like you really, you have a different perspective than the rest of us. Like you said, we go and we experience it, and then we go "bye!" Whereas this is your work; this is important to you, you're telling a story. So I would presume that the images have to touch you in a way so that you can effectively tell the story you just shot. So how are you doing this work now? Because you went from Nintendo 3DS, iPod, iPhone, we're taking it serious, we're documenting now, documenting the protest. Now where does that lead us? What are we doing now?

Awa Mally 

What are we doing now...(Sanni laughs) So we were documenting the protests, and that went to just taking pictures of people, you know, their headshots or their birthdays or events, and now I'm actually just chilling and processing.

Sanni Brown 

Oh, okay, why? Why are you doing that? Why are you not working nonstop? (both laugh)

Awa Mally 

Because that's unhealthy (laughs). But yeah, starting at, I think 17/18, I just realized — it was nice to just continue and do all the things and grow and have all these opportunities, but I realized I did want to stop and pause and reflect and think about what I want the next couple years of this art thing to look like for me and feel like too, because I realized it's way more than just pretty things or cool events. Like there is a lot of emotion and tension going into it. I want to be able to manage that well.

Sanni Brown 

What do you feel like people don't know about photographers? What are some unknown truths about the work of photography? Because, I mean, I personally, I feel like what you just said was one of them. I do, because we got our camera phone, you know, we just click, click, click, and "oh, girl, that's tea" and then you don't think about the work as a photographer, like, you got to go home with this stuff, and you're processing it sometimes — you got a home studio or whatever, or your own personal studio. So like, what are some untold truths about photography that you feel like you want people to know?

Awa Mally 

I would say that, in my experience, I photograph moments for people that maybe they may have never had the opportunity to. So maybe I'm taking like their first professional headshots, or I'm taking photos of, like, somebody's wedding, you know, and because I'm a friend or a community member, it's at a more affordable rate, or they're more comfortable, but also, it's like, the only time they've been able to do that. And so sometimes, in unfortunate cases, I'm like, "oh, I've taken the best pictures this person has ever had" or their most recent photo, or on the special day. I'm the one that did that, these are my photos, like, I'm the one that gave them that, I guess, opportunity. And sometimes it's really joyous. It's really nice to have people share photos with their family members, and I see people continue to share those photos, and I'm like, "wow, they really love these photos. These photos are gonna mean something for the rest of their lives." And then sometimes, on the other hand, it's like "wow, I took these photos and these are maybe the last moments someone was able to document this person in their life."

Sanni Brown 

That's cool, wow. Again, I wouldn't — because we're constantly taking pictures, you know, little raggedy pictures that your grandkids gonna see one day. I wouldn't have thought "that's my work." When I see a picture, I don't think "that's my work." I don't think that. And so that's like an unknown connection to your photography. And some photos do be eatin'. So yes, we appreciate the work, ma'am! How do you feel, as a photographer, about all the filters and stuff that you see on apps? Like, how do you feel about that? How do you feel how that affects the storytelling? Because we're all telling our own stories on our own social media. Do you use filters on your social media?

Awa Mally 

Not on my social — well, it depends. On my story I do, because I like my things to —

Sanni Brown 

Do you like glittery stuff?

Awa Mally 

Glittery? No. (both laugh)

Sanni Brown 

You look completely disgusted (laughs)

Awa Mally 

No glitter. (laughs)

Sanni Brown  

You have a bubbly, kind of shiny, glittery, kind of — I'm sorry I read you completely wrong (laughs). But I know they do have some type of filters where they don't, like, change the whole composition of your face, but they'll put like a shimmery background — I like those. What type of filters do you like? Do you think it's cool? It don't mess with like, your own beliefs about photography?

Awa Mally  

I like colored filters. Like when they just make it more saturated, or they give it a different hue, I like that stuff.

Sanni Brown 

How do you feel about AI? Can you tell the difference? Can you, as a photographer, tell the difference? Because I be shook.

Awa Mally 

Some things are a little too smooth. It's in the smoothness, like, it's just too smooth where it kind of looks like a painting, and a photo wouldn't look like that, you know?

Sanni Brown 

As a photographer, what do we need to be looking out for AI, so that we not getting fooled? Because, baby, I be getting fooled. (laughs)

Awa Mally 

I would say it's in the details. It's kind of hard, but it's in the details. Like, if it looks too much like a painting, or if it looks too good, then it's like, no. Because humanness is like, imperfect, you know? And AI just be looking too smooth, too flat. It looks too flat.

Sanni Brown 

Too flat, okay. And there's, like you said, hues and things like that in real life — depth.  Okay, so thank you. I try because they really convincing.

Awa Mally 

Good luck to all of us, honestly. (both laugh)

Sanni Brown 

Do you plan on working with AI in your work in the future at all for storytelling? Or are you like, "no, I want to stick to the rawness of photography."

Awa Mally 

Maybe in the planning phase. I do like using AI for, like, maybe creating images you haven't been able to take a photo of yet, and just like getting those out, figuring out what that looks like, storyboarding. But I do not see myself using it in, like, my actual work that I put out.

Sanni Brown 

And right now, you're still deciding — you're just basically processing everything you've done in the last 5,6,7 years or something like that. And you're still determining — do you have any idea where you might want to go with your photography?

Awa Mally 

I just know I want to do more work that resonates with me.

Sanni Brown 

And what is that? What does that mean?

Awa Mally 

Just storytelling about my own personal life and how I see the world. I feel like I've been able to show that through the work that I've done, but it's just like in collaboration with how other people need me to show up sometimes. So now I want to do more work that's very specifically centered around what I feel and how I see the world.

Sanni Brown 

Wow. So you want more of you in your work. That's a pivotal moment. I felt that in radio. I felt like, wow, I'm doing all this radio for everybody else, what about my little stuff? So I feel you, and that does happen in a career so that's really cool. I looked it up, the person who said his camera was his weapon of choice, and I got to make sure I show up on the Carbon Sound audience, because I can't be talking about theMinnesota music scene, and I don't be respecting the legends. That is the Gordon Parks that said the camera was the weapon of choice. So I just want to make sure the audience understand, we respect the Minnesota legends here. But yeah, go check him out, because I learned about Gordon Parks when I did a little TV with SPNN, and I learned about Gordon Parks through that. So I always like to ask the photographers, like, "do y'all know about him?"

Awa Mally  

I know about Gordon Parks, but I'm bad with quotes and dates. And stuff like that (laughs).

Sanni Brown 

I mean, I was bad with it too, you see, I forgot (laughs).

Awa Mally 

But yeah I love Gordon Parks. I feel like we don't show him enough love.

Sanni Brown 

So that said, where can we — we gonna see you in the cut helping us with Carbon Sound?? Like, where can we find you? Wait before we go, Reviving Roots Wellness. What's that about?

Awa Mally  

So I work at reviving roots as our community curator, and so I'm doing a lot of like, events and social media and content there. And we have a block party coming up this Friday on the (Aug.) 16th. But yeah, I'm there all the time from 12 to seven, so if you come between 12 to seven, you'll see me there, and we can hang out. I can show you all things about therapy, yoga, wellness. We can just talk. I can give you a tour. It's a really nice place for Black-centered care.

Sanni Brown 

Just hearing it, that was a great promo (laughs). That sounded very soothing to me. Rooted In Ahomé, did I say that right? What's that about?

Awa Mally 

So back to creating things that I need, and so ahomé is how you say home in my native language. And so that's kind of like my venture where I'm like, "okay, this is how I create more opportunities for me to center my ideas."

Sanni Brown 

Okay, so you really processing it like that. Nah, just people say they process it. They really don't. (laughs)

Awa Mally   

No I take it serious over here. (laughs)

Sanni Brown 

Pure Water Radio. I know about that because that's what pulled up and curated the beat battle for Carbon Sound. Okay, Pure Water Radio, okay! And then Reload.it. What's that about? Oh, and shout out to radio host, Minneapolis DJ Kwey. And I say that because I literally had a VO audition, and I had to say that DJs name — I don't know if I got the audition (laughs). That's probably because I messed that up. So shout out to DJ Kwey, make sure I say that name right. But Reload.it, what's that about?

Awa Mally 

So Reload.it was just me, Nardos and Keda, other women artists in the Twin Cities, and we were doing a lot of art in different spaces, and realized that a lot of the things that we were involved in, we were usually the only women. Or we didn't feel like the people that were in the front-facing positions in a lot of art spaces were women, and we just didn't feel like that was right or equitable and fair. And so we decided to start reloaded so we can work with more women together and be in the more front-facing planning and organizing.

Sanni Brown 

I like that. Where did the name come from? Is that, like, a photography thing?

Awa Mally  

No, it's actually from DJing. (laughs)

Sanni Brown 

Because that's what I know it from — "nah, replay, take that tape out and reload that." Okay, okay.

Awa Mally 

Because Nardos is a DJ.

Sanni Brown 

Okay, okay. So your stuff is, like you said, all art, music, film, these are all the things that you're doing right now?

Awa Mally 

No.

Sanni Brown 

Oh, that you've done work for?

Awa Mally 

Yeah. 

Sanni Brown 

Gotchu, okay, so you are just — you working at Awa Mally Institute right now. Okay, getting a PhD in me.

Awa Mally 

Yes. (laughs)

Sanni Brown 

So in the meantime, we can go check out all of your work within these places, because you're basically on a spiritual hiatus right now. (laughs)

Awa Mally  

Yeah, I'm on a sabbatical. I'll be coming back January, 2025.

Sanni Brown 

Okay, you know what, a lot of us feel that way, not even gonna lie in an election year (laughs). Artistically, you mean. So where can we find you? Like these people don't know Awa already, because you be everywhere (laughs). But for those of us who are new to Awa Mally, how do we find you?

Awa Mally 

I'm on all social platforms, at awamally, and I'm at Reviving Roots Monday through Friday, 12 to seven, some Saturdays. You can find me there, and usually out in community. I always tell people like, "I don't know where I'm gonna be, but I'm gonna be somewhere."

Sanni Brown

I know. I know you by your pictures and where you be in the community before actually sitting down with you. (laughs)

Awa Mally 

I'll be somewhere.

Sanni Brown 

She will be, I'm sure of it. So I just wanted to tell you thank you so you can go in somebody else's picture right now (laughs), is that a photographer thing? Like, you know how to end up in the shot?

Awa Mally  

I actually try to stay away from the shot (laughs).

Sanni Brown 

And that's why the camera always gonna find you (laughs). But when you pop back out again, and show ninjas, can you come here and show us your next project please?

Awa Mally 

Yes!

Sanni Brown 

Okay, okay, cool. All right. So with that, I can release you. Thank you, Awa.

Awa Mally 

Thank you so much!

Sanni Brown 

Alright, y'all, we gonna get back. I think I got enough time to do some music class, so stay tuned. Don't go no place. It's The Message, Carbon Sound, Music for Life. Thank you, Awa Mally!

Tailor Briann stopped by to talk to Carbon Sound’s host Sanni about the importance of being able to connect with people as an artist, staying true to herself, music on the horizon, and a lot more.

Sanni Brown 

Carbon Sound, The Message family, Minnesota music scene, I have another interview. This person is a rapper, creative director, photographer, makeup artist — smells fabulous and is very effervescent — child, we even got the same nails, okay? Carbon Sound, Minnesota music scene, y'all welcome Tailor Briann. Yay!

Tailor Briann 

Thank you for having me.

Sanni Brown 

Thank you! First of all, shout out to John, because John be pulling in the gems from the Twin Cities. So shout out to John. I am new to Tailor Briann. So I am a part of the Carbon Sound audience that doesn't know much about you, so give us your greatest pitch. Who is Tailor Briann?

Tailor Briann 

She's outgoing, she's witty, she can rap. I'm really just like — I wouldn't say like a all-American Girl, but like, I'm really just like, what you see is what you get. So I feel like everybody experience with me is different. So I did my first interview with John, and I was like, super, super nervous, but when I came in I was like super turnt “hey John!” you know. So I'm really like, you kind of got to build a rapport with me. And then I feel like the more you get to know me, the more you love me. And depending on what space we're in, you know, you might get this, you might get that. I'm really just — what you see is what you get.

Sanni Brown

Okay, I like that. That feels safe (laughs).

Tailor Briann 

What you see is what you get. No surprises (laughs).

Sanni Brown

Just in the world of social media and catfishing, it's really refreshing when what you see is what you get. So how did you use all of this and turn it into what you do? Now first, tell us what you do.

Tailor Briann

So I am an artist. I consider myself an artist, but a rapper. I do music, I make music, I write, and I like to say that I make magic from scratch.

Sanni Brown

Ooh, please dig into that before you go any further (both laugh).

Tailor Briann

So, with me, like music — the beat has to speak to me. And I usually get a visual before I get words. I usually will see a visual for a song before I get words. And then I kind of like put the words to it, or I write from experiences, not always my own, but like my friends, so I think that's really cool. All the things that you said I do or I have done, have just prepared me for this moment, like I could do my own makeup if I'm coming to Carbon Sound, the photography, just everything. Those things have prepared me to know exactly what I want musically, I would say.

Sanni Brown

So artistically, it helped you musically. Can you break that down, what that means? How is what you did artistically — so your makeup artistry, you also do photography. Hold up. Let me go back, I know how I do this. First of all, music that you already have out. You have What's Your Fantasy featuring Essjay, I love Essjay.

Tailor Briann

I love me some Essjay, that’s my girl.

Sanni Brown

Essjay has really flourished in the last couple of years — for me, just visually, because I just was listening to her music. So that’s dope that you worked with Essjay. And I heard a little bit of it, it was turnt when you walked in. Back To Rappin’, that's your that's your album you have out. You also have Tai Way I like that, because that's your alter ego?

Tailor Briann

That's my alter ego.

Sanni Brown

Okay, and then you've also collaborated — we said Essjay — Prince Riley, and you've performed, and been on the same bill with Juice Lord, that's a working man, Nakara Forjé, you are so lucky, and EuphoriasRoom. I believe she was a part of a beat battle we had. So you done touched some talented people.

Tailor Briann

Yeah, I'm a lucky duck because I'm a late bloomer, so I'm a lucky duck. Like all these people, Essjay I was a fan of prior to meeting her and prior to working with her, and we just like clicked. That's really my girl, that's my friend. Eueu or EuphoriasRoom, I love her. She's also a producer, super, super dope. Juice has been like the homie forever, so to be on the same bill as him, like he's a Minnesota legend, so I was honored. And, like, he's super silly. And, yeah, all these people that you mentioned — Prince Riley. I call him my music big homie, because when I first started doing music, we, started a band, me and my home girl, Mon Alisa, so it's called 222, and we would shadow him and Mac Turner, and they would just make music, and then they threw us in the studio, and we started to make songs and stuff. They really just showed us how to be an artist, and you can't really show anybody, but as far as, like, trusting your instincts when it comes to music. You can take opinions, but at the end of the day, I think people identify with you and authenticity, so we would always revert back to what we originally did. Like we would do 10 takes and be like, “you know what? The first one was cool, we're good.” You know what I'm saying? So, like you said, all these people are amazing, and I'm just so blessed to have bumped shoulders with these people coming up.

Sanni Brown 

And I love it when — I don't know how, but it seem like the people who come in here, it's like, y'all all work with the people who I'm personally interested in and want to know about (laughs). So I'm like, okay, universe, do your thing. So again, you are a creative director, photographer, makeup artist, and all of these ventures help you with music. Before we get into the music, can you tell me about like your start in photography and those things? Creative directing, photographer — is that all connected?

Tailor Briann

Yeah, so honestly they're all connected. So I grew up in performing arts, and just everybody that I knew — that stuff wasn't, it wasn't like a thing I guess, because I was dancing growing up. You got to know how to do your own makeup, we had to take our own pictures, a lot of stuff we had to do ourselves. So me being a creative director is kind of funny, because it's like we was doing that back in the day, because we just loved art, and we love to create these things. Like, I remember I had a group of friends back in the day, and we would put on like fashion shows, but we would have like, a dance segment. We all created, like we all did it together. So I think, like when you are an artist to the core, you're kind of just naturally good at stuff. And I think I've always been able to write music, right? But makeup, it was during the pandemic, same with photography, and I'm like, why not put them together? Like you can get your makeup did before your photography appointment. And then I think I just am able to connect with people and make them feel comfortable so like me being behind the camera and being able to breathe life into people and be like, “nah, girl, do this.” Even like senior pictures and stuff, that was my favorite stuff to do, because just seeing people super excited about graduating, and being excited about school, like, I don't know, my clients really just help me.

Sanni Brown 

How do they help you?

Tailor Briann

Trusting me with their vision, but also inspire me to go after what I want. Because a lot of times I would do photoshoots, it would be for — to me, graduating is a big thing. I did this girl's makeup and photography, and she was going to school for cyber security, and I'm like that is so cool. It just seemed like the closer and the more exposed I got to doing music — like I would be doing makeup for other artists, like, a girl that I'm super cool with, I used to do her makeup — a few artists I used to do their makeup. So to have it be full circle and to want to do — and they used to be like, I would play my music while I’m doing their makeup, and they’d be like, “girl, you need to drop this. You need to take this serious.” I've written music and poetry forever, so I think it kind of just all prepared me for this moment. I don't think that I would be as serious of an artist if I started prior to when I started.

Sanni Brown  

Wow. So you were doing photography and then you were doing makeup, and you were like, girl, let me combine these two. And in doing that, doing the makeup, you playing music. This is so creative, and I'm just hoping local artists are paying attention. So while you're doing the makeup, you playing your music. And I'm a barber, I done played my music in front of people, so it didn't kick off for me like it's kicking off for you (laughs).

Tailor Briann

You gotta just throw it in the playlist.

Sanni Brown  

And so by doing that, did somebody hear you? Or you just already had friendships with these musicians, and they were watching you do your thing. I love how you — all of you are just kind of — not all of you, but it seems like everybody that comes in here that's in the music thing, they were doing something else and, it just called them. There's a artist called Bubba Sparxxx, he says, “I didn't choose the thing. The thing chose me.” And I remember being like, I wonder what that means, like, I wonder what that looks like. And I see it here on — I don't know what it is about this scene. It's like, you get a little bit close, and it just sucks you in man.

Tailor Briann 

I think I told John this in my first interview, like, I really like makeup, I really like photography. They're great. They're like hobbies though. Music is something that is so magnetic, and it's so natural. And it's like, how have I gone this long without doing music? You know what I'm saying? You kind of just can't care, and you know, you either got it or you don't with music. You know what I'm saying, you either have it or you don't. And that is connecting with people. At the end of the day, you either connect with people or you don't. It's not about the music being good or bad. It's about connecting with people.

Sanni Brown 

Okay, Imma pause right here. I gotta play some music. Is there anything you'd like to request? Anything off the top of your head. We got some Kendrick, we got some Saweetie, we got anybody you want. A local artist would be dope, if it's anybody local we should put on.

Tailor Briann 

Oh, can you play “Bugs Bunny” by Essjay TheAfrocentricRatchet? That’s my jam.

Sanni Brown

We gonna get into this, and then we'll be right back on The Message on Carbon Sound with Tailor Briann, we gonna get into that last comment you just said about being able to connect with humans. I want to dig deep into that. It's The Message, Carbon Sound Music for Life. Don't go nowhere.

Sanni Brown

I am in the studio with Tailor Briann, local creative director, photographer, makeup artist and rapper in Minneapolis, and you are in music class on The Message on Carbon Sound Music for Life. My name is Sanni, I'm your host. If you just pulled up, welcome. This is a treat. I'm just so honored to be in the position to interview all the people from the Minneapolis music scene, from the Minnesota music scene, because me, I'm screaming from the mountain tops on the first of every month, I go all local, Tailor. I go all local, and I play all local music, because I really rock with this local scene. We have heavy hitting folks in the local scene — a couple of them folks I don't know if you saw last time what you mentioned — I get excited about them because I'm fans of them. And so for y'all to come in and be like, “oh, I work with them. We was eating chips the other day. We was eating hummus.” Just posted up working with these people, and I'm fans of them! And to me, I feel like the fact that every time somebody comes in here and they say, “yeah, I work with somebody” that tells you how much talent is in the Twin Cities. For me, that tells me it's a lot of talent. So the last part that we left off with was you said, as a musician, you got to be able to connect with people. Please speak to that because before we even get into that, I had a conversation with my fiancé, because I'm in rap school, so I ain't there where you at yet (laughs). And I was telling him how music is spiritual, and that's why when we hear songs, we be like, “that's whack.” It's because you can't connect with it. But to somebody else, it's like this the — bring up Meek Mill’s “Dreams and Nightmares” in certain parts of America and watch everybody lose they brain, because they connect with that, but other people's like, I don't connect. It's the connection. Can you dig into what you meant when you said your ability to connect with people helps your ability to make music that connects with people? Why did you say that?

Tailor Briann 

So I've always said that music was subjective, right. I think that goes back to the connecting with people. So I literally make music for me, and people like me, and I make music for the girls that get to it and the guys that love them. I make music for the boss girlies. Like, get up, get to it, grind. I don't care if you're 16, if you want to do a popsicle stand, go see if your parents can rent you an ice cream truck. You know what I'm saying? Like, just go big or go home. That is literally the motto of my family, go big or go home. We don't play. I was raised around such resilient and outgoing people, like, all I know is connection. From food to the atmosphere to the culture, I speak through experience.

Sanni Brown

So your connections is what's showing up in the music. This what you said. You said, “I make music for me and people like me.” Now, on the outside, somebody would say that's cocky, but it's really important. Because I was just thinking about how — why do we get offended when people take a shot at a artist we like? Because we're connected to that. We feel like it's a personal — because I personally, I'm internally, like, connected with this person. And I just didn't think, like, that's why people are so aggressive when you hit — because it feels like you're insulting them, and it's that connection they have with them.

Tailor Briann 

I'm really big on just being yourself, and if people like it, they like it but you can't force yourself on nobody.

Sanni Brown

Where'd you get that from? Because I just saw a video on social media, a woman, she does fashion, and she was like, “yep, we're all starting to look alike. So let me give you some fashion tips.” I do notice that, I hear people saying our bodies are all are starting to look alike. So in this day and age where everybody kind of is encouraged to look alike, and you're saying, “no, you got to be yourself.” And I can tell you yourself. It's just the vibe you got, I can tell. Where did you get that? Where did you get that idea just be yourself, like, and why do you stick to that?

Tailor Briann 

Again, the women in my family, they're awesome, they're cool, they're dope. My great grandmother had like, 10/11 kids, and most of them were girls. And nobody is the same. These are my great aunts that I sit and kick it with, and they talk to me, and they give me the game. They're just so fly, like, even with my hair being cut, like, when I spoke with John, I had braids, right? But I'm like, “I've been wanting to be bald head since I was 16.” I begged my mom to cut my hair. She was like, “you're in high school” and I’m like, “I want a mohawk.” I've always been the quirky — like, I think Issa Rae is the perfect example. I've always been the quirky, the awkward, black girl. I had an emo phase in college, but I was still listening to trap music on the way to school. I just had on black lipstick, and I had a frown on my face. You know what I'm saying? Like, I've always been me, and I think people can relate to being them.

Sanni Brown

You just said that — again last week, I did a show on family reunions, and I talked about aunties, uncles and cousins, and how young people struggle with being honest about the music they listen to. Because they're still trying to figure out who they are, and am I supposed to like this song? Can I like this song? And so that's really cool that that vibe is in your music, and it does make it easy to relate to. Man, you said something. That stuck with me, your ability to connect with people.

Tailor Briann 

This sounds so cliche, but I really care about how people — I'm a cancer. I’m a water sign, I'm connected to the world, I'm connected to the earth. I care that people feel good. Like when my family is happy, when my friends are happy, I like, go above and beyond to make sure, because I know how it feels when they go above and beyond for me. So like, my recent birthday, I just was kind of over it. I don't know, I'm just focused on music. So I didn't feel like I had nothing to celebrate, because I had stuff to accomplish. But they had to pull me back in and be like, you always celebrate everybody else, and you're so big on “no, you the baddest in the room.” And I would tell somebody, even if I'm in that room, you are the baddest girl in the room. Don't let nobody make you feel like you are not that girl, or you are not number one. That is what I speak to because I had that experience. You know, the typical, I was bullied and this, and then I found — couldn't nobody play with me. I was bullied, but she, she got hers, you know what I'm saying? I've always come from strength. I've always came from resilience. I've always came from if you don't got it, go get it. If you haven't figured it out yet, go figure it out, explore. Already having a career, and it — I was doing good girl, and then to completely stop. Music don't make you no money in the beginning.

Sanni Brown 

Not in the beginning. And I'm gonna keep the buck with you, a lot of these stuff, the dreams and stuff you make, it be broke in the beginning. Because the universe like, “listen, do you really want it?” (laughs)

Tailor Briann 

I think to humble yourself — and that's why I say music is for me, and music is forever. This is something that I can do no matter what, I'm gonna always have my phone with my notes, because you don't need the internet for that. So even if my phone off, I can still write in my notes. Or Imma always have a pen and paper and I have my brain. Your brain is the most powerful tool that you have. So it just circles back to that connecting with people. I know how to connect with people, because that's what I naturally do. So it's not a chore. It's not something I have to think about. It's just me.

Sanni Brown  

So local artists, if you had any suggestions — let's say they're at the point where they say “I want it. I want to make music, but I'm scared my family is like, I gotta be a doctor or whatever.” What would be your suggestion to young ladies in the Twin Cities? Because I always want to make sure that those of you who are doing it are speaking life to the young folks who are listening who want to do it. So what would be your message to them?

Tailor Briann

Do you want to make them happy or do you want to make you happy?

Sanni Brown  

You gon hit them with that right away? (laughs) I said the young.

Tailor Briann

Because when you go in your room, if you live with your parents, when you go in your room, and you punching the air, are you mad at them or are you mad at you? There's nobody on this planet that can make you do — even at two. You know what I'm saying? You have to be so about you, and that's what people admire. I remember when I used to look up to people and I used to be like, “I wish I could be like —” but I was like that in my everyday life. So why is music not obtainable for me?

Sanni Brown

I had mentors tell me that I'd be like, “wow, you're dope.” And they're like, “you seeing the dope in me means you're dope too.” You just dropped this. Is this your latest stuff? “What's Your Fantasy” with Essjay?

Tailor Briann

Yeah, so that's my latest single. Which is crazy because we did this song in like 2021. So I seen her at ITS Fest in 2021 —

Sanni Brown

Philos, philos, philos, baby!

Tailor Briann

That's my brother. Shout out to him, innovator, like, just, he's everything, right? So she was on stage, and it was in the middle of this park, and it just seemed so majestic. And I just connected to her so much, I'm in the crowd, turnt up.

Sanni Brown

She does have a knack of turning you up (laughs). She turn up the girls.

Tailor Briann

She turned up the girls! And we all were put in a group chat, it was like a bunch of women artists, we were put in a group chat, and then I hit her outside of group chat, like, “hey, do you want to — can I, can I get a feature?” She was like, yeah, and I'm like, turn up! So it was very personable. She came over to the crib, like we were just listening to beats. We started writing. And when I say this was 2021 —

Sanni Brown

It was in the trenches.

Tailor Briann

It was so long ago, but for us to drop it now, it was just like a buildup of us just exploring and getting better. Every show that we've done together, we have performed this song. So this is a crowd favorite.

Sanni Brown

Well, because it's, you know, it’s the play on Ludacris’ song because as soon as I heard, I'm like, “that's my age group, hold on now.”

Tailor Briann

 Yeah and I love me some Ludacris.

Sanni Brown

You like Shawnna?

Tailor Briann

I Love Shawnna.

Sanni Brown

Okay, yes. She was in my class, in my rap school. She was in my class, you know what she said? Well, because this is public programming, she said, “get ‘em all.” But she ain’t say get ‘em. She was talking about when she rapped, because they was asking her, how do you feel when you rap? And she was saying get ‘em all. And so I've changed my opinion of rapping. It is awesome that you've performed with Essjay, I am a super huge fan. So that's just so cool — and it's giving girls, it's giving the girls. Do you believe in girl’s girls?

Tailor Briann 

I do believe in girl’s girls. I would say that I'm a girl's girl. Girl power, girl power. Girl power, girl power, girl power!

Sanni Brown

The fact that you contacted Essjay after the fact, like, that's a girl's girl thing. The fact that she — is Essjay a girl’s girl?

Tailor Briann  

She is. She is a girl’s girl. Even, I feel like working with me, right? Because — did I have music out? I don't even think. I had like three songs out, two freestyles, and it kind of goes back to what you were saying about everybody's body is starting to look alike, right? One of my first freestyles, it was 2Pac “Hit ‘Em Up” and I was like, “no shots, I gotta keep it 100” like I have to keep everything natural, because — I had this thing about my gap and I was like “ah I wanna close it. I wanna close it.” All these things — because I don't hate these things about myself. I got me a little stomach, but like, my body is still tea. I have to show the girls it's okay to be you, because people love you. I never had a problem getting a man, and nobody ever told me that I was bad looking. So what am I searching for? What am I trying to appease? And you know how people say, “well, if you want to change it, change it for you.” And I never thought about changing these things when I was in high school, never thought about changing these things when I was in college. Soon as I started rapping, I was like, “man, maybe I need to get my teeth done. Maybe I need to get a BBL. Maybe I need to do a fat transfer.” And they was like, “fat from where?”

Sanni Brown

(Laughs) Your people will straighten you out.

Tailor Briann  

They will straighten you out. You have to keep good — and I feel like Essjay is one of those people that is a peer, not only a friend, but a peer that's like, “girl —” and even my friends and my family. They just fill me up, my mom is like “you are that girl. Can’t nobody take you.” My mom don't play.

Sanni Brown

You know what I'm noticing too? I was gonna ask you this, do you feel like being a girl's girl also has to do with you, being a woman, being able to connect with yourself?

Tailor Briann

Mhm. You have to know yourself to be a girl's girl.

Sanni Brown

You're giving me girl’s girl, your music is giving me girl’s girl, Essjay is girl’s girl, okay. I can sense that. And you just saying that you got to be connected with yourself to be able to connect with people. Why is it any different when it comes to women.

Tailor Briann

You have to know yourself, knowing yourself as a woman is a superpower. It's a superpower because if you already know who you are, and then you venture to do something, nobody can tell me anything about music. Like, that's what I want to do. I don't care how long it takes and it's kind of like, what are my goals? My goal was to just be an artist, and that is the main thing. The main thing is the main thing, to be a rapper, to rap about things that matter. And the things that matter is me coming out of my shell and becoming this woman that I admire and that I look up to, but also all these things that people say about me, I believe that they're true now, right? Because I used to be so, like — I would overcompensate and compliment somebody when they compliment me and I’m just like, “take the compliment girl, eat it up, act like you belong here.” Sit up straight, act like you belong here. When you walk in the room, it's your room. No disrespect to nobody else (laughs).

Sanni Brown

Okay, ma’am. Ma’am when is we getting more — Imma go back and study Tai Way, the EP from 2022. Because if it feels like what I'm — because I got chills, if it feels like what I'm getting from you right now, I want all of this. I need all of this. I like that. I like the girl girl vibes. I do think girl’s girls vibes is extremely important today. Women are coming out rapping, and we got like, mean girl stuff going on, and so it's really refreshing to see two local ladies okay, that's giving girl’s girls getting together and making music. So by the way, can you slide into Essjay’s ear and tell her we would like her to pull up?

Tailor Briann

Absolutely.

Sanni Brown

Please do the girl’s girl thing (laughs). Is there anything, any projects you're working on that you want us to know about, that we need to know about, especially for the girls?

Tailor Briann

Yeah, so I'm actually dropping a freestyle this Friday (8/9). It's a play on “Money, Power & Respect.” I recently went to New York for the first time — I actually had this freestyle in the tuck for a minute, but my manager was like, “no, it's too hard. You gotta just give it to ‘em at the right time.” Friday is the right time, apparently. But I recently went to New York and I shot the video in Times Square. I was just like, “my people!” like, it was so many beautiful Black dancing and selling stuff. Like, “hey, this $10” and we went around the corner on a bike, the dude charge us $50 but I'm like, these are get money hustlers, this is what I come from. My family's from Detroit. I come from hustling, I come from grit, I come from culture, and I feel like money power, respect is basically me — like “What's Your Fantasy” I love that song. It was super cute. But let's get back to rapping. Let's, get the bars up. Let's go back to the main thing, and Imma probably give y'all some new music after that. September, October. I feel like, you know, fourth quarter is my season, so Imma drop that, let y'all sit on that, and then fourth quarter, Imma come back in.

Sanni Brown

I'm so excited. I'm so excited to have you in here today. You are amazingly refreshing, effervescent.

Tailor Briann

I ain’t talk too much?

Sanni Brown

No! I have to wrap it up because I got to do the rest of the show, but I could sit here and talk to you all day long. I just, I want to thank you for coming in and please come back. I'm always asking y'all to come back when y'all got new projects. I am genuinely excited, and I'm just gonna stalk you on social media when you come in public and come hang out with me, it's not stalking anymore. It’s a relationship (laughs).

Tailor Briann

Nah, we homegirls now.

Sanni Brown

Tailor Briann, thank you so much for coming in. Where can we find you? Where can we follow you, where can we get your stuff?

Tailor Briann

Everywhere it's Tailor Briann, and that's on all streaming platforms, that's on all social media accounts. And don't forget the two ends at Briann. It’s Tai Way!

Sanni Brown

Oh my goodness. Thank you so much. I want to go have drinks now (laughs).

Tailor Briann 

Let's do it I love a lemon drop.

Sanni Brown

Wait a minute, now we at the Public Media Center we can’t — Tailor Briann, everybody (laughs). We gon get back to the music. I got a couple more songs for music class. Don't go no place. Thank you, Tailor. Thank you so much.

Tailor Briann

Thank you!